Buryat draw

[Uli]

Hi folks,

I d like to discuss the following: As far as I know one uses a thumb ring in a way where the bow string is held in place proximally to the distal thumb joint.

But recently i talked to a Buryat hobby-archer (Buryats are a northern mongol tribe) and he told me that they use thumb rings made of leather, that protect only the thumb pad and hold the string in place over the thumb pad, and shortly before release put a twist on the string by rotating the hand outwards.
In addition, for this technique they dont fold the last 3 fingers into the palm.

The arrow lies parallel to the first proximal phalange of the index finger and often passes to the left of the bow hand.

For pictures search for "mongolia travel photo" in the internet, there are pics of Naadam archery with what I believe to be this style of draw in some cases. examples: http://www.ub-mongolia.mn/photos-mongol ... m=1&pos=26
http://www.ub-mongolia.mn/photos-mongol ... um=1&pos=5

And notice: although one normally speaks of "the mongolian draw" the mongols themselves mostly mix up a thumb ring draw with the arrow passing to the left of the bow hand.

Anybody knowing more about that ? please write.

Uli

[Bede]

Uli,
The thumb draw is very strong and with bows up to 80 lbs draw weight it is possible to draw with the hand open. You don't have as clean a release as with the remaining three fingers clenched, but with practice you can become very accurate.

In modern Mongolia several thumb shooting styles are in use. Generally they use leather thumb tabs and that is totally traditional. Hard thumb rings were only part of shooting with the thumb. Leather ones are easier to make, cheaper and conform to the shape of the thumb. One Arab writer thought that they were more accurate too.

Needless to say, they can be used with the clenched hand style as easily as with the open hand style. I was shooting with one modelled on a modern Mongolian one last Sunday and found it just as comfortable and easy to shoot as a horn ring. They are comfortable with thick strings too.

As for shooting on either side of the bow, it has an advantage if you shoot both western and Mongolian archery because you can use the same bow. When I was buying modern western bows, I had to buy left-handed ones to accomodate my shooting style. I think that modern Buriats and Mongols have very steady hands and good releases. This makes it possible to shoot of the left side of the bow without the arrow being pushed off but the pressure of the index finger on the side of the nock.

Another advantage is the large ears on the bows and the big arrows. These are more stable and forgiving than light arrows and whippy-ended bows.

[Stephen Selby]

Clearly, Asian archers are able to master shooting with a thumb draw and the arrow passing either left or right of the grip. But once you go up on horseback, it really matters that the arrow pass on the outside of the grip (right side for right-handed draw), otherwise it's difficult to keep the arrow from flopping about as you ride.

[Bede]

Stephen has raised an important point. What is being done today is a sport and works well at that level.

If you took a modern Western archer or a modern Japanese kyudoka and compared their practices with their ancestors, there would be many differences because of the practical requirements of archery for warfare and hunting.

Standing very calmly in front of a target makes shooting off the knuckle side of the grip possible with the thumb. Under more stressful circumstances, the thumb side is much more certain. It is also easier to nock and draw faster.

[Uli]

Thanks for your interesting comments !

Concerning the horseback and shooting in a hurry: the hungarian Mr.Kassai shoots mediterranean style no ? Hes VERY fast - though he doesnt shoot over the right side. I havent seen anybody shooting so fast so many arrows in a line and even hitting flying targets , or have you ?

[johnny.winter]

...Mr.Kassai shoots mediterranean style...

Yes, and that?s an important difference if I got it right. It might be easier to nock, to keep the arrow on the shelf/hand and being faster drawing mediterranean style.
But shooting with a thumb ring is a complete different story (tried it only a few times myself) and with this technique it apparently is easier and faster to control and nock the arrow right sided of the bow, as bede pointed out.

P.S. Kassai?s shooting is awesome, my computer can not reproduce pictures in a video clip as fast as he shoots is arrows and....hits the target sitting on a horseback at full speed. Incredible!:shock:

J.

[Bede]

I too have seen Kassai Lajos shoot in person and he is very fast and accurate. He proves that practice and dedication are just as important as any particular style.

Many nations who practised horse archery used some variation of the Mediterranean style of draw. Judging from the Alexander Sarcophagus, in the ancient world, the two finger variation of the draw wa used with small Scythian style bows. There are ivories from Shami in Iran showing Parthian archers using a three finger draw. In Central Asia, variations of the Mediterranean draw persist up to the eighth century or later.

It was probably the Blue Turks and later the Seljuks and Karakhanids who spread the use of the thumb ring westwards. There is evidence that other westward-moving tribes also carried the thumb style of shooting with them west into the southern steppes. There is some evidence that the last Sassanids might have adopted that release at about the same time as the Byzantines. In the Byzantine empire, both techniques were practiced according to the manuals for archery.

[Russ Mitchell]

I've not seen the gent in person, though I've met a couple of his pupils. They're fluid and accurate.

The local objection to shooting off the left side of the bow of which I'm aware is strictly, again, a practical consideration for war, as opposed to sport... medieval arrowheads in Hungary and the Balkans/Byzantium were poisoned. According to Jan Dlugosz, the poison used was apparently a pretty scary one. According to his chronicle, it was said that "none who are hit with such an arrow will live," and the Byz. even lost an emperor to an arrow-poisoning accident with his own equipment while boar hunting. Using the method that Kassai does with an arrowhead that's poisoned just gives me the willies... so much so that I spent months experimenting until I found a draw that I could do under pressure while wearing an armored gauntlet from a correct, arrowhead-up quiver that would keep the arrowhead from ever touching my bow hand.

That's no shot at Kassai, though: purely the sport-vs-war divide.

[Jaroslav]

I know that M. Kassai shoots fast and accurate, but dont you think he has arm drop and will probably have problems with serious heavier bow?
No critique from my side,I just know he is using very light bows (under 30#) for training. (Probably due to fact he has to train several horses for archery)
But with ellbow that low, bows at 50# will be problematic to draw at least......

http://www.kassai.at/images/kassai574.jpg

[Russ Mitchell]

Not if he's shooting from an anchor point off the chest like that, he won't have any problem. I have been training myself to shoot this way, and actually find it *easier*, not harder, to draw a heavier bow that way. At the moment, I only shoot a... 78 at 28", adjust that out to 30" for my shafts, laminated Hungarian style from Grozer... my range is down for safety fixes, so I haven't been able to work into my strength bow yet(128@28"), and can only manage a half-2/3 draw on the heavy one. I find the 78@28" difficult to string unless I'm in constant practice, but using the power of the rib muscles and back, far easier to draw than with the elbow high. I have also had shoulder injuries, though, so "your mileage may vary."