speed shooting = horseback archery?

[Stephen Selby]

Adam: I don't think there's much difference between quick and effective nocking for speed and for shooting in sticky situations. The points stressed in the Chinese manuals were (1) that you must be able to nock without looking, and (2) safety of the archer was of prime importance.

For a pracitcal insights into archery/cavalry/infantry interraction and tactics, Machiavelli's 'Art of War' is interesting:
http://www.constitution.org/mac/artofwar_.htm

S

[Adam Karpowicz]

Thanks for the responses. Still, no concrete evidence of horse archers trained/required to shoot fast. Accuracy is the most important, then the skill in nocking and drawing, speed = maybe. No distinction made between foot and horse archery.

To nock without looking had to be the most important requirement in warfare, since a soldier, on horse or on foot, must be aware what the enemy is doing at all times. The speed was secondary and did not seem to be enforced (English were foot archers). Multiple wounds had to be from the shower of arrows, not one-to-one combat.

Adam

[jack farrell]

If a horse archer gets off his horse, what is he then? -j-

[Stephen Selby]

Adam, I guessed that you've checked all of this stuff out:
http://www.atarn.org/chinese/horseback/ ... rchery.htm

[Uli]

yep, these are interesting texts..
gotta "take it easy" - I cite from Qingxi Zhuyong:

The speed of the horse and the repeated release of the arrows must be rapid. Nevertheless, if the archer is quick but not at ease, than that is still an error. That is why one talks of 'taking things easy'.
The essence is: stability within movement and ease within speed.
[..]
Regardless of whether you are too far away or whether your bow has got snagged in something, you must not loose off a wild shot. This is called 'holding on for a second chance.' 'Holding on for a second chance' is horseback archers' slang and students should pay attention to it.
[..]
Shooting at a level target ball is not the same as shooting on foot. On foot, you aim carefully at the target; on horseback, it's all done in the blink of an eye. As you pass the mark, once your bow-hand is past the target ball and the arrow is pointing at the base of the target, you can't be either too soon or even less too late. If you're too early, you'll strike short. The hand must follow the mind automatically. It is not something you can describe in words.

[Adam Karpowicz]

This is very good, thank you.

Cheng Ziyi, however, says "draw the bow slowly". This is 1628, and he clearly talks about the battle use of bow.

The other two gentlemen write about examinations rather than the battle use. And the same Qingxi Zhuyong also says not to rush while drawing the bow. Nevertheless is it the first, somewhat inconsistent, but the first reference.

Adam

[Redhorse]

Rush is not the same thing as speed.
I can do things with my horses at speed, other rush for the same thing.
I could never rush playing tennis with Bj?rn Borg and speed him out. Hi could take it slow and still speed me out.

[Russ Mitchell]

Maurice's Taktika, discussing the training of cavalrymen, specifically states that shooting swiftly is essential, and that even accurate shooting is worthless if it is not also rapid.

Similarly, Mamluk archers faced during the Crusades appalled the westerners with how quickly they shot (but I don't have a handy reference, sorry).

[Bede]

You are probably thinking of William of Tyre during the second Crusade. It is quoted on page 142 of Saracen Archery.

[Stephen Selby]

Maurice's Taktika, discussing the training of cavalrymen, specifically states that shooting swiftly is essential, and that even accurate shooting is worthless if it is not also rapid.

Actually, the views of Maurice are very revealing:

"The East Romans discovered that fire prepares the way for shock more through suppression than attrition and that the effectiveness of suppressive fire depends less on accuracy than on sheer volume and high trajectory. For when the enemy has to worry about avoiding the missiles raining down on him, his attention is diverted from what is happening directly ahead, and he becomes vulnerable to the shock of a charge. Therefore, in the instructions for drilling the tagma, the horse archers line up behind the lancers, reversing the earlier practice, so that they must use high-angle fire in order to reach the enemy and avoid hitting their own men. The directions for training the individual horse archer are equally revealing: "He should be trained to shoot rapidly . . . . Speed is important in shaking the arrow loose and discharging it with force. . . . This is essential. . . . In fact, even when the arrow is well aimed, firing slowly is useless." This emphasis on speed, and hence volume, of fire, even at the cost of accuracy, was also without precedent in Byzantine military practice."

Charles C. Petersen
(Article from Military Review, August 1992. Scanned by Air War College.)

[Redhorse]

I find that interesting, same technic as the English are so proud of with their ELB.
But this is the speed and accurancy of the hole army, not a single horse archer.
When was this done, East Romans?

[Adam Karpowicz]

Thank you. Can you post more about this reference? Who is Maurice? dates? Where to find it?

Quote:

"He should be trained to shoot rapidly . . . . Speed is important in shaking the arrow loose and discharging it with force. . . . This is essential. . . . In fact, even when the arrow is well aimed, firing slowly is useless." This emphasis on speed, and hence volume, of fire, even at the cost of accuracy, was also without precedent in Byzantine military practice.
....

It seems to me the first sentence (in quotation marks) is from the source. It tells to shoot fast, but if it means repeated fire is not clear. I understand the source advises to draw fast, as in flight shooting, for a fast arrow and greater distance. This is especially important for bows made of natural materials.

The second sentence seems like an interpretation of the first and may be wrong. He equalizes speed of draw with voloume of fire, just another interpretation.

Adam

[Bede]

The Emperor Maurice died in 602 as the result of decapitation.

He is credited with writing the Strategikon. The Emperor Leo is credited with the Tactica.

I found the reference below to the book in translation, but I have not seen that version.

Maurice Maurice's Strategicon (1984)University of Pennsylvania Press, Philadelphia, translated George T. Dennis.

[Stephen Selby]

Bede has given you the correct bibliographic reference. That is the only translation and it's out of print.

I have the following interpretation of the confused instructions on shooting at speed in the battlefield: we need to distinguish between what an archer normally does and what he can potentially do.

An archer on a horse or on the ground who can't nock and shoot at the greatest speed is unarmed for as long as he takes to complete the maneuver. So as a good defensive practice, we need to train archers to complete the shooting cycle as fast as possible.

However, given the choice, every shot should be 'at ease'. Speed should not be confused with haste.

[Bede]

I have found several copies through www.abebooks.com and another translation into English as follows:
Roman Art of War in Late Antiquity: The Strategikon of the Emperor Maurice:a Translation with Introduction and Commentary
Philip R Rance