Bow slap with thumb ring

Ray Cover · Post by **Ray Cover** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:50 am

I am new here. Thomas D recomend you all as a source for info on shooting.

I have a Hwarang Korean bow and I am trying to break long formed habbits and switch from a western three finger draw to using a thumb ring.

My current problem is that my arrow is slapping the bow as it passes and it is deflecting my arrow about 3 feet to the right of my aiming point. I know it is hitting the bow because I can hear it thud and I can see marks on both the arrow and the leather strike plate on the bow. It is hitting the arrow just in front of the fletchings.

What am I doing wrong with my form or release that is causing this?

Any info or advise any of can give to help me get this straightened out will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Ray

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:44 pm

Ray,
At a guess, you are pushing against the side of the nock with your index finger. People do this to keep the arrow from falling off the draw-hand thumb, which is a good thing, but only a little extra pressure will cause all manner of problems.

Shooting to thr right is normal, but it should be in line with the arrow. However, that said, it all depends on where you draw to and how you release.

Ray Cover · Post by **Ray Cover** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:17 pm

I am trying to arrange to meet with Thomas Duvernay when he is in the states over semester holiday so he can help me with a lot of the problems I am having.

I would like to get as much worked out as I can on my own first. I don't want what short amount of time I will have with him to be spent on very basic silly stuff.

I will try to not put as much pressure with the index finger and see if that helps.

I have given this a lot of thought to try and figure out what the arrow is doing. The best I can figure, when I release the string the string is moving slightly to the right due to the shape of the knob on the ring. Somewhere during the strings movement forward the string comes back into its normal path and the arrow is moving away from the bow slightly.
at about the time the nock leaves the string the string has pulled the arrow back toward the bow and is hitting the side of the bow with it.

If this were a western style bow I would blame it on the low brace height. But the brace height on these Korean bows is supposed to be about 5" -5.5". Mine is just about in the middle of that range.

I have bareshafted arrows to get the correct spine using a western draw and the bow shoots fine using a split three finger draw off the left side. However, untill I get this problem fixed I really can't bareshaft anything for the thumb ring draw.

This has become a huge obstacle I am going to have to get over before I can do anything else.

Ray

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:08 am

Ray,
You have spotted a major problem with low-brace-height high-efficiency bows. Since the string is already travelling to the right, what would bring it back to the left? The answer can be how you grip the bow. Thomas knows more about this than me, but if you have a firmgrip an the handle of the bow and you draw the string in an arc rather than in a straight line you end up with what one Middle Eastern author called an internal draw. that usually has much more serious consequences than you are experiencing including striking of the forearm.

To work out what is going on, I need to know some things.

Have you tried using a leather thumb tab and does the problem occur with it?
Do you grasp the grip tightly or loosely? What fingers do you use?
Are you pushing with the heel of your hand or the flesh between the bases of the thumb and index fingers?
Does your cheek touch the arrow at full draw?

Ray Cover · Post by **Ray Cover** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:32 am

Here are pics of the thumb ring I am using.

Here is a pic of me at full draw. This is the way I have been shooting.
I have noticed that I tend to anchor much higher than the rest of you.
The reason I can think of for this is that I am use to anchoring in the corner of my mouth with a western draw. This higher anchor point keeps my sight picture close to what I am use to. I had not acutally noticed that until seeing this picture.

Let me describe my draw. I draw with my bow arm already extended and pull the string back with my right hand. The reason I do this is striclty for hunting purposes. This draw presents less motion for a deer to see and be spooked by. The hand drawing back is motion moving away from the deer rather than vertical or horizontal motion which is easier to see.

I am going to tend to be a close range shooter compared to most on here. I would eventually like to hunt deer and wild boar with an asian bow instead of my modern recurve. That means that shots in the 15 to 35 yard range will be very common for me.

Ray Cover · Post by **Ray Cover** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:33 am

I have not used a tab of any kind. I do use a leather wedge in the back of the thumb ring to take up slack and acheive a snugger fit.

I have considered ordering one of the brass thumb rings from Horsebow.com or making one of the Chinese type with the ridge midway like the one I posted in the Hardware section.

Ray

Ray Cover · Post by **Ray Cover** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:41 am

Here are pics of my grip. I got this grip off of Thomas' Korean Archery web site. Since switching to this grip I have no string slap on the wrist.

I have not noticed how firm I am actually gripping the handle. WIth my western bow I barely hold them at all. Just enough to keep them from falling out of my hand.

This is new enough for me that I may be holding it to tight and putting a torque on the string and bow. I will watch for that the next time I go out to shoot.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:53 am

Ray,
I personally would not use that type of ring because almost all the surviving documentation and rings are of the two standard designs: the lipped ring and the cylindrical. There are more resources to help you perfect your technique.

If you intend to use the Korean system, Thomas is the best to advise you. Your anchor point is more compatible with the Turkish style though. I would suggest keeping the bow-hand thumb straight and totally relaxed.

I find that at shorter distances, a standard lipped thumb ring and a draw to the ear are accurate. They are particularly good for instinctive archers keeping both eyes open.

Ray Cover · Post by **Ray Cover** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:14 pm

Bede,

I really am not set in my ways enough at this point to prefer one style over another. I just want to be able to shoot as well with a thumb ring as I can with a 3 finger draw.

After reading your input, my plan of action is to get two more thumb rings and try them. The next time I go out to shoot I am going to concentrate on relaxing the bow hand more and straightening my thumb.

I do shoot with both eyes open. I tend to be able to judge distances better that way. Are there any websites out there that instruct in using a turkish draw?

Do you see any obvious problems with my form?

BTW, I really do appreciate the help and guidance.

Ray

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:59 pm

Ray,
I think that your form is quite good. I don't think that I can recommend web sites on Turkish archery yet. Most of the good work on the web has been done by people like Stephen Selby and Thomas Duvernay. So we have good information on Chinese and Korean archery. Alameddin has some links in this discussion forum to some useful translations, though they are without the commentaries that make them easier for us to understand.

Good luck with your shooting. Turkish Archery and the Compsite Bow is still available from Manchester University and it is cheaper to buy it there than from Amazon which seems to concentrate on early editions. You just have to pick out the general comments rather than the specific flight shooting information.

sosohi · Post by **sosohi** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:30 pm

Hi Ray,

I'm a Korean archer.

As you know, The Korean bow is small but strong and has high flexibility. And It is suitable for long distance targets.(145 meters long)
It means tiny mistakes makes big influences.

First of all, in Korea, to be a archer(To shoot at a range), we must drill with a unload bow during one or two months. At that time, you can learn about the bow's principles and the method of pull and draw.

In my opinion, your left hand imitate Korean style, but you ignore a basic fundamental rule.(Actually there are so many principles. ^^)

I can tell you,
" You should twist the grip with your middle, ring, little finger." (We call it 'hasamji' - lower three fingers?)
" Lean your bow to right - about 15˚ "

And can you show me the arrow's fletchings? (when it is loaded)
If it is missloaded, the arrow will slap the bow properly.

Sorry, I'm short at english that can't explain it in more detail.

Practice and practice but do not hurry, if you understand the left hand's principles, you can hear the short and high tone whistle sound. and the arrrow will fly straightway.

sosohi

Ray Cover · Post by **Ray Cover** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:37 pm

Sosohi,

Thank you for the help.

I had not thought of leaning or canting the bow to the right. I will try that.

I will also try to post a picture of my flecthings this evening.

I think your English is pretty good. I wish I could speak Korean.

Ray

Ray Cover · Post by **Ray Cover** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 3:46 am

Bede,

I want to thank you. You spotted one of my big problems. I have been working on shooting with the thumb ring and looked for some of the things you suggested.

One of the big things I was doing wrong was pushing too hard on the nock with the index finger. I sighted down my arrow and noticed I actually had a bend in the arrow I was pushing so hard. I have worked on that.

Another thing I did was replace my knob ring with a teardrop thumb ring. I like that a lot better. I don't know if it is just a comfort thing or if I am actually getting a better release but it did help.

Anyway, I am no longer shooting a meter to the right. Now I am only shooting about 10" to the right and grouping better. I am not hearing the loud thump from my arrow hitting the bow any longer. now it is down to a slight tap. I suspect I am still pushing a little too hard with the finger.

I still have a way to go but your suggestions have brought me a long way and I wanted to say thanks,

Ray

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:17 am

Ray,
It is amazing that we can get our ideas clear enough in writing that we can help each other from opposite sides of the world.

I am pleased that I could be of some help.

Uli · Post by **Uli** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:54 pm

sosohi wrote: " You should twist the grip with your middle, ring, little finger." (We call it 'hasamji' - lower three fingers?)

Hi Sososhi
Do you mean to put a twist (= a turn) on the grip ?
If so, when ? During release ?