Bamboo arrow debate

[Ashbow]

Stiven, I think many people here appreciate the efforts you try to put into supplying us with good arrow shafts. I also do understand and respect your need to make a living out of selling those shafts, I suppose it's not an easy task, as making a living out of tradirtional archery usually doesn't bring much money.
But, please try to understand that your opinion on Japanese and Korean bamboo shafts doesn't relfect the feelings of many tradtitional archers who have handled well made Japnese and Korean arrows.
I don't say here that they are superior, they are simply different and it's quite difficult to judge them in the same category as the shafts you supply.
The species of bamboo you deal with is differet than the Japanese and Korean species and that difference reflects itself in the finished shaft/arrow properties, I have no doubt your shafts will make good arrows, but for a different type of shooting.

The usual approach is to have arrows as closely matched as possible, this is the reason every shaft in a given good set of shafts will look similar, the 'mould' effect is to be sure that every arrow in a set will have the same flight.
An archer instinctively will choose the shafts that look the same rather than those that don't, simply because they usually want to hit what they shoot at.

[stiventiger]

yes,bamboo shafts design come from hard competetion of select best 1 from my more than 100 vaired bamboo design products of my original design,you can see i design many special unique bamboo products also for bamboo pipe making( i am first) also bamboo whipes( i am first person too) ,i almost develop bamboo into deepest top products,like bamboo hanlde gucci etc,and my special bamboo design already opne many new field of products,bamboo shafts may be is only 1/10th of my design.
many special bamboo products design come from my dream:it is may be heaviest job:many times, i get up from bed alone,just come idea suddenly and draw it on paper,you know i am not expert on many fields.and meanwhile i thought and thought and study it in a lot of time( you know many archery person play mor than 30 years and nothing new products ,you can't image i am never shoot 1 arrow when i design bamboo shafts,also never smoke bamboo pipe and never play bamboo whips,but lucky i get many people support and i must use risk and corage to make them into products( i must invest money first and not know if they are suceed or failed),i know 90% human being desing can't make them into products for selling,but iwth my long time live exprence and many years business risk( i lose 10 years for nothing get when i start my business) and now 80% of my design become real products and bring many people to get their new business,i think bamboo shafts may be only 1/10th of such process.in a word,bamboo shafts is just let person havve more choice,meanwhile it bring many person to earn some new money too.that is the real aim.

[Orda Khan]

I have just come home from my club's Christmas fun shoot and dinner. We had a great time in the woods with the course ending with our longest 'clear', shot of 78 metres (even then the target is on the edge of a birch grove across a stream)
With these bamboo shafts the arrows are around 450+ grains. Two Korean bows present, 40 and 42 lbs Kaya and Hwarang. The cast was great, it was as flat as, if not flatter than comparable weight modern recurves shooting skinny carbons.
I lost one arrow to a stone in the ground (always a lottery when you hit the dirt) For day to day shooting such as this, these shafts are excellent and exactly what you want when you know they could meet an untimely end. I would never dream of shooting either of those Korean sets out on our courses, there would have to be no danger at all of them coming to harm.

[jchocz]

I don't say here that they are superior, they are simply different and it's quite difficult to judge them in the same category as the shafts you supply.
The species of bamboo you deal with is differet than the Japanese and Korean species and that difference reflects itself in the finished shaft/arrow properties, I have no doubt your shafts will make good arrows, but for a different type of shooting.

The usual approach is to have arrows as closely matched as possible, this is the reason every shaft in a given good set of shafts will look similar, the 'mould' effect is to be sure that every arrow in a set will have the same flight.

I think that this is not entirely correct. Quality wooden arrows are probably better than bamboo arrows (wood is more homogeneous). The bamboo is also among the nodes sometimes different stiffness. I like archery Asian - Chinese, Korean, Tibetan ... Therefore, I want to shoot arrows from bamboo. In the history of Asia shot to hunt and fight with arrows made of bamboo (history showed that they were successful). I'll never get results like the arrows made of carbon. But I like shooting the arrows from bamboo.

Before using martial or hunting certainly was not the time to accurately measure weight, distance between nodes, and consistency of all arrows. It is not real life. Arrows from Jack are beautiful. But I think it is a ceremonial arrows, and it is rather an aesthetic issue (a small difference in weight, equidistant nodes ...).

The same weight shafts or arrows and nodes the same distance surely does not guarantee good shooting arrows! I think the similarity with the original arrows are beautiful. Larger fair value is still shooting arrows capability. Arrows are good or bad. Ashbow wrote that from Tiger bamboo arrows are a different type of shooting - which is meant the type of shot? Tradition of bamboo arrows in China is comparatively long, as in Japan and Korea. Yes, bamboo is more species. Still, I think that what is important is the final arrow (set of arrows). Tibetan arrows are worse than the Korean just because another bamboo?

[stiventiger]

i think most person love tranditional archery are romantic people,when they shoot natural material arrows they are exciting as if they return to live in 1000years ago,i read chinese book( not sure)chengjishan son made 3-4 million pcs of bamboo arrows in china for his second huge war to europain,because bamboo arrows are more stiff and tolenrence than wood,they are not easy to broken and they could repeat use them to shoot again,just they draw out bamboo arrow from dead soldier and not make new arrows to save many time to fight continuelly with faster speed,make arrow need a lot of time and wood arrows are easy to break compare with bamboo arrows,chenjishgan's son with their faster horse and bamboo arrows repeat use and lambo battle way to win and cover almost each angle of europain in short time,in fact most advantage of bamboo arrow are its very stuff and tolerecne and mostly are used on horse archery(short distance,just 20-30meter or during 50meter)
anyway i think my shafts is more near original histroy shape and japan and korean are more near modern arrows,they do bamboo arrow "mould "way to satisfy modern people requests:more presice at target,but our shafts are more close to history shape:very stuff and tolenrecne and repeat use without damage.people can still use it to hunt or trainning without problem.
but many years ,japan and korean bamboo arrows are belong to rich person arrows,their price are so higher to keep normaly people just see and discuss it,important is now i down the price to satisfy 99% person can buy it and play and finally bamboo arrow become normal arrow and it become popular arrow like wood .if people love precise shoot,they should play compund bow with scope or gun shoot with riflescope etc modern way.you can't match tranditional archery to modern archey,tranditional archery belong to relax sport(also for hunting)and modern archery belong to presice shoot tools(for olimpic game or hunting safety)
but people always try to make my shafts into japan and korean standands,in fact we can do it,but we insist on it should be "volkswgan" price arrow,let rich people coninue to play japan and korean "benz" bamboo arrows,but i am sure more and more people love economic price bamboo arrows.

[jack farrell]

Arrows found so far of the Yuan/Mongol era are wood arrows.

It is not difficult to demonstrate that at least some ancient hunting/war arrows were made in carefully matched sets.

[jchocz]

It is not difficult to demonstrate that at least some ancient hunting/war arrows were made in carefully matched sets.

Jack, I do not doubt that some Korean arrows for general use have a small weight difference and the same distance nodes. But it can not be generalized.

Mid-level commander in the army sometimes uses a ceremonial uniform. It can be argued that other commanders sometimes use formal uniform? Definitely yes!

My buddy shoots Kyudo archery and once showed me Kyudo shooting. He had arrows with feathers other than the original arrows. He declared that it is not shooting right Kyudo. Shot on target Makiwara - distance 5 m (25 lb bow ...).

I think therefore that we have more in mind - a spiritual perception of archery. I do not criticize it. It is similar in imitation of Korean, Chinese and other arrows .. I also want the greatest similarity. But I am not an extremist in the requirements. Also, we can say that each producer (master) produced a variety of arrows. Everyone was looking for the best solution. Therefore I do not believe that there is only one pattern and one approach. I think Japanese and Korean traditional archery has changed - from the practical use of bow and arrows (use of combat or hunting) for more spiritual awareness. Therefore, many people prefer a less hands-on approach. Another friend makes me a few years look like the talks to Korean Bamboo Arrow (bong never any real use bamboo arrow). I prefer bamboo arrows 200 will destroy the production and shooting ...

[jack farrell]

Jchocz; Once again I defend your right to do whatever you want and do not hold myself up as an example of some kind of ideal technique or anything of the sort. Somehow my relating my technique has spurred a competitive spirit in you.

And now you are stating that because your arrow making is careless that ancient arrows were also made in this manner,

"Before using martial or hunting certainly was not the time to accurately measure weight, distance between nodes, and consistency of all arrows. It is not real life."

To me this indicates that you are completely unfamiliar with facts. You see, Jchoz, if you will investigate any of the other threads on atarn, you will find out that we investigate information about archery. Everyone has an opinion but what we count here are facts.

So please demonstrate to us using any Asian culture that you please that their arrows were randomly made. You mention Japanese. Have you studied Japanese war arrows? Use facts as we now know your opinion on the matter. Jack

[jchocz]

To me this indicates that you are completely unfamiliar with facts. You see, Jchoz, if you will investigate any of the other threads on atarn, you will find out that we investigate information about archery. Everyone has an opinion but what we count here are facts.

So please demonstrate to us using any Asian culture that you please that their arrows were randomly made. You mention Japanese. Have you studied Japanese war arrows? Use facts as we now know your opinion on the matter. Jack

Jack, I do not want to endlessly argue about who is right. That's not my goal. Instead, try to make 20 to 30 arrows. Maybe not an exact copy of the Korean arrows, but I will be satisfied by shooting ...

There are several collections of Korean real arrows (eg, Grayson Archery Collection, etc.). According to information here, including a set of arrows in Korea:

http://anthromuseum.missouri.edu/grayso ... rrows.shtm

or:

http://anthromuseum.missouri.edu/grayso ... rrows.shtm

I see no outstanding compliance distance of nodes and the same diameter shafts in this set. But I think this collection more realistic.

I'm not saying that the production of arrows was accidental. It's not a factory. Everything was done manually.

Research and facts? Even archaeologists often can not express exactly.

[Daniel]

Making 20-30 arrows to get one set (lets say 12) of good ones (ones that fly right) is impractical. Can't imagine old masters doing it, they simply couldn't afford loosing time like that.

[jack farrell]

Good. Now we are getting somewhere. These are not war arrows. These are old tech target arrows which impaled a solid wood target. The reason there is so much variation is that neither is a set. The first group is parts of three sets. Just look at the markings, nocks and different lengths. Group two is also not a set. These are three arrows of a set and three random arrows. A set of Korean arrows is five.

Used arrows are available for sale in Korea.

The set of eight I posted are matched. All these sets are not identical. They are custom made for draw length and bow poundage.

In the past, members have posted Uyghur 1000 year old arrows in a matched set, Mongol Empire 800 year old matching arrows, 200 year old Mughal arrow matching sets and etc and etc. Not all arrows came this way, for what we know. But the idea was well understood and practiced in antiquity.

So let us all do as we want. I shoot my decorated arrows every week but at an archery range. If there was the possibility of loss, I would switch to blunts. No ceremony, a contest. Personally, I have learned not to make a strong statement here which I am not prepared to demonstrate is true.

Shoot well. Peace. Jack

[stiventiger]

Arrows found so far of the Yuan/Mongol era are wood arrows.

It is not difficult to demonstrate that at least some ancient hunting/war arrows were made in carefully matched sets.

about 2000years ago,china in 3 countries period,many wars were happened in china,1 famous chinese war artist(zhugeliang,all chinese know his name)steal 100,000pcs bamboo arrow from caocao(his enemy commandar)in 1 day,and big hollywood film(red cliff)is the story of that period,we sell the film group 3000pcs of bamboo arrow,pls see the photos.
and megolian invased china may be only 8-30 years,and chinese kick them back to mogoian by bamboo arrows(i guess and i read of some history,but not sure)and meanwhile mogolian conquel most europain and arabian countries (mainly is eastern europain)about 400-500years,i guess europain use wood arrows only,they couldn't get them back to their home.
and also 400-500years ago,japanese invased china,and chinese army use bamboo arrow kick them back to japan and them japanese start to use bamboo arrow and their huge bow to fight again with chinese.
all history shown,bamboo arrows take very important role is ancient wars in china.

[stiventiger]

Good. Now we are getting somewhere. These are not war arrows. These are old tech target arrows which impaled a solid wood target. The reason there is so much variation is that neither is a set. The first group is parts of three sets. Just look at the markings, nocks and different lengths. Group two is also not a set. These are three arrows of a set and three random arrows. A set of Korean arrows is five.

Used arrows are available for sale in Korea.

The set of eight I posted are matched. All these sets are not identical. They are custom made for draw length and bow poundage.

In the past, members have posted Uyghur 1000 year old arrows in a matched set, Mongol Empire 800 year old matching arrows, 200 year old Mughal arrow matching sets and etc and etc. Not all arrows came this way, for what we know. But the idea was well understood and practiced in antiquity.

So let us all do as we want. I shoot my decorated arrows every week but at an archery range. If there was the possibility of loss, I would switch to blunts. No ceremony, a contest. Personally, I have learned not to make a strong statement here which I am not prepared to demonstrate is true.

Shoot well. Peace. Jack

why we refuse to do korean bamboo shafts?
i tell you the true of process of bamboo arrows,normally we collect 10000pcs of bamboo material(exsample) and only 50-60% can be make into our standards bamboo shafts,if we do same weight or same nodes bamboo arrow,we may be do only 100-200pcs of korean style bamboo shafts from 10000pcs of bamboo materials,we have to threw out 90% above of bamboo material,it is not respect natural,as we waste too much bamboo,so,we refuse to do such korean style bamboo shafts.
if worker go to maintain to select korean style,may be 1 person only pick of 30-40pcs of mould bamboo arrows,that is cost too much,so,i say we can do korean mould style,but the price will be 5$/pc,not 1$/pc.
i can guess when ancient wars were happened,no commandar ask boywer to do same mould bamboo arrows,as war need huge amount of bamboo arrows,it is not possible to let people to seclect same mould bamboo arrows,now people have enough time and money,so,korean or japanese start to make long time selce for mould bamboo arrows,again,their mould bamboo arrow cost so higher( as they have to waste too much material or they spend a lot of time to make selecetion to make very few mould bamboo arrow)
but we don't waste so many bamboo material and not want to spend so long time to make few selection,so,we do our style,but now almost 70-80% is 18cm flatter surfce on nock placement,bowyer is very easy to make them into arrows and economic price.

[stiventiger]

Making 20-30 arrows to get one set (lets say 12) of good ones (ones that fly right) is impractical. Can't imagine old masters doing it, they simply couldn't afford loosing time like that.

i have a uk friend who love bamboo shafts so much and he do a lot of work on bamboo shafts analisys,may be uk people love to do reseach work,pls see his report:
Relation between diameter, spine and weight in Tonkin shafts
There has been quite a lot of discussion around bamboo and cane arrow shafts, their spine ratings, weight, diameter etc.

Having done a little work looking at the shafts I have and being personally been interested in the results I thought I would post them here.

First I must stress that the measurements and data I have are based on Tonkin. It is possible that other bamboo and cane species will show different results.

Can Tonkin bamboo shafts be sorted by weight only to give useful spine sorting?
The simple answer is no. There is a relationship between spine rating and weight, but it is not a consistent one. Generally, when averaged out heavier shafts will tend to be stiffer and weaker shafts lighter. when it comes to specific shafts of the same diameter there will however be stiffer shafts that are lighter than weaker ones etc.
The following shows the average weights of 33 inch 8 - 8.5mm shafts for the various spines. To get an idea of the weight of a 28 inch shaft you need to multiply by 0.8485
20-25# - 300 grains
25-30# - 316 grains
30-35# - 339 grains
35-40# - 356 grains
40-45# - 367 grains
45-50# - 390 grains
50-55# - 424 grains
55-60# - 433 grains
60-65# - 450 grains
65-70# - 462 grains
70-75# - 481 grains
75-80# - 498 grains
80-85# - 512 grains
85-90# - 527 grains
90-95# - 535 grains
95-100# - 543 grains
100-105# - 561 grains

While this averaged out data does show a fairly good and direct relationship between spine and weight I must stress that in individual shafts there can be significant variation.

The next thing that I thought may be of interest is the relation between shaft diameter and spine. By shaft diameter I mean the diameter at the base when cut or the thicker end of the shaft. This only became apparent to me when I had my little table and put it into a bar chart form.

Can Tonkin shafts be sorted by diameter only to give useful spine sorting?
Again, the answer is no. I hope that the following image is clear enough to show why
You will see that for each diameter of shaft there is quite a nice little peak shape but also quite considerable overlap. The 8-8.5mm shafts are a good example. The highest peak is 50-55#, but there are many more shafts that aren't. Really, the only way to get Tonkin bamboo shafts of the spine rating you want is to cut shaft diameters in the right ball ground and then spine rate them one by one.

Well, that's about all the reliable information I have at the moment. I hope it is of interest.

[ginni]

Stiventiger, you can make shafts very stiff, about 120-130 spine?
My arrows are made from chinese bamboo ans thi sis the spine, the mass is about 600-700 grains in 88 cm length.