Interesting Asiatic Bows in Russian Collections

Jos?Dom · Post by **Jos?Dom** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:50 am

This is one of the best threads I remember!

It's especially of my interest a picture from the Topkapi Museum where you can see a fully decorated arrow. I don't think I have seen a Turkish arrow decorated from nock to point as this sample.

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:54 am

Thank you guys. Theoretical discusions are good, but i think one picture say more than 10 text pages ...

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:45 am

If yu like painting arrows, Jose- this is from Wiena.

and rich thumbrings

Ashbow · Post by **Ashbow** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:13 pm

Dusan, thank you for the effort, great pictures.

Dusan wrote:interesting design variation on turkish stil bow - looks mostly like wood reflex bow (maybe bad modern rekonstruction ?) ?Krakow

jbl wrote:I really found the bow from Poland quite interesting it almost appears to be a reflex/deflex recurve/longbow of modern bowyers.

The bow (the picture on the former page of this thread) you were referring to is most probably the bow displayed in the Czartoryscy Musem, Krak?w, it is not a reconstruction, I think it was made in Lwow but I?m not sure. The bow is actually a bit of mystery still to be solved, there are some metal (brass/copper) fittings present at the handle and below the siyah, the bow is covered in sewed-on leather between the ears so the bow?s construction, whether it incorporates horn or not is not known. It would be really interesting to see what it?s made of, but it would be difficult to get the bow examined. The amount of set could mean a wooden belly, such sinew backed bows without horn could be used in the past in Poland, but there is no hard evidence.
I was just about to visit the museum with a couple of other people to have a closer look at the bow but the museum just got closed for a longer period of time. The good point is that they should be doing some conservation on the artifacts so if they happen to treat the archery stuff as well maybe there would be a chance to find out something more. Let?s see.

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:31 pm

This is challenge for you - or another archer fun who live closer Krakow. One must start frienship vith people from museum - restaurator is best choice- some drinks in restaurant

. This way is better to close -personaly examination.
I was do this new friendships fue times vith succesful in Slowak museums.

jbl · Post by **jbl** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:31 pm

I know from reading that the Huns had two bows one for war and one for hunting. Is it possible that the bow from the museum in Poland is an example of a "hunting" bow used by the Rusyns? The reason why I say Rusyn is because you believe it was made in Lvov; which was part of Ruthenia.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:58 am

JBL,
Do you recall where you found that information on the Huns?

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:59 am

Some old paintings mongol soldiers :

China - Subutei drawing

Mongol hunter:

China - about 300c.:

Manchurian :

Ugedei chan

Paintings from arab book Rashid ad Dina
Mongols shots to the horses. these full of panic galoping against oposit army:

Attack to Bagdad:

Kublai chan :

Mongol have madyars woman and shoot to fear magyrs soldiers :

Temudzin army in battle vith Dzeall ad Din army:

battle in Dunai bridge :

Gazan chan vith wife Bulugan Chatun :

Nogays win against Tochta in Don river:

Mongol cavalry man- Rashid ad Din chronic :

Japan book " Moko surai ektoba" painting Takedzaki and 3 brothers Ogano shoot in Mongol ship:

And for fun , Russian president Medvedev visit Nadaam in Ulan Batar and shoot vith todays mongol bow :

We must only hope that this young mongol generation dont angry to us...

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:45 pm

The first picture is often referred to as a Mongol soldier. The first time I recall it is in a book called The Mongols by E.D. Phillips in the late 1960s published by Thames and Hudson. This was generally a good book for its time, but included this mislabelled illustration.

A close look shows it to be the famous Chinese general Guanyu holding his equally famous halberd (reclining moon knife) in one hand and stroking his beard with the other. Due to various attempts to reconcile this picture with the descriptions of Mongol soldiers, he is variously described as holding a sword and having a spear over his shoulder. Actually they are the same thing, a long handled broad-bladed slashing weapon.

As good to look at as these illustrations are to look at, I wonder if the others in the series, Subetei, Batu Khan and Mongke Khan are equally mislabelled. There is one of Chinggis Khan that does look like the other portraits of him so possibly they are correct.

jbl · Post by **jbl** » Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:32 pm

Bede in Helfen's "World of the Huns". He goes into great detail on the composite bow and his belief that they had one for hunting and one for war. Other authors have of course used him as a source when they bring the issue up.

Orda Khan · Post by **Orda Khan** » Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:23 pm

Too many illustrations are painted after the fact, some by quite some time. Relying on an artists impression for accuracy is very limited.

Bede, judging by Subedei's description as a 'large' person, I would have equal doubt over that second drawing as well.

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:37 pm

Orda i agree vith you (about artists), but i must plead for old artists, because i am one ofthem . If i can say from mi experiences , i always try all facts what i can found about picture what i painting . Every detail is for me importantand. Evan if i painting somthing what i know from real live around me (like cars, or bicykles ) i buy car or bike catalogs for maximum reality... Remember scytians bows. We know only pictures from old artists. Some years ago we talked about this bow that this is mosrly artists fantasy... and today we have extraordinary save real archeologists founds -punktualy to the small detail like old pics !

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:55 pm

I will try to translate one interesting bow found in North Altai:

J.Chudiakov, A.V.Ebel,V.A.Kotcheev, - (Institut archeologii SO RAN )

Bow and arrows from grave in Kam-Tytugen lake - North Altai.

In Sayano Altai region was found in many graves from 500c Tashtin and Minusin kultur many bows. But many of this bowas was in bad kondition (1).About some of this we can say how he looks. Tashtin bows was composite vith very reflexed bending part and siahs in angle
In Oglachtinsk mohyla was found wood bow model in quiver vith 5 arrows. Similar bow models was found in Kokev cultur graves inTuva ).Fragments of arrows model and bending parts was found in mohyla Kara -Dash .In Bulan- Kobun and Kok-Pashk cultur was found bone plates (7). Composite bows in this Huno-Sarmat time was some diferent tipes .
Most save bows founds for good reconstruction was from mumifi graves in Kam-Tytugen river cave in Kosh Agathch region Altai republik.

This very interesting cave was found some years ago by Kokorya village schoolboys. Cave was in very hard rocks place. All founds was placed and showed in Kokorya school museum.
Between thid founds was better save bending midle part of bow vith handle. Hamdle is from twoo wood frames who was glued vith pegs (!) In Handle was glued from both sides two bone plates.Handle was 28 cm long . Save bending part was 14 cm L, 6,5cm W.

A.I.Semenov sayd that all wood parts was from poplar (?) and in all parts was glued sinew layer./1.5,6/ Horn plate was save in 23 cm L - 6,5 cm W. Another save part from bow was siah bone plates. One is from 2 parts
45 cm L, second 35 cm L, 2 cm W. Its hard to say if this bone plates was from same siah or diferent siahs . Another bone plates was no found , but maybe schoolboys and his next helpers - teachers dont see another...

(Profesional-archeologist -Semenov , Chudiakov, research only founds in schoolmuseum, because people from Kokorya dont remember vhere the cave was...) From long bone siahs plates Semenov think that bow was about 2 metres long (?)Similar bow was from Kushano- sasanidan cultur. In Sayano -Altai region this tipe of bows was Hunic culture influence. Kam-tytugemsk bow was very similar vith Kok- Pashskij bows , where found longer siahs bone plates. 6 arrows was found. Arrows are cilindrical desin, vith sort bark plate glued near the end.75 cm L 1cm W, from birch wood.Arrows was painting vith red , black and white color.Some iron arrowheads was found but wasnt restauration and vith the time all was corrode... Some arrows have horn whistling heads. One was save. A.Semenov think that this bow was tipical weapon in Hunic etnogenez period.

I was translate only most important parts from text.

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:00 pm

Interesting news :

Tchingischan mohyla must be somwhere in Tuva region

New Russian archeologist expedition ? Bear spirit? was sacred with mongol shaman. Historian doktor Nikolai Abaev sayd that Tchingischan mohyla was in 90 % in Tuva region because here live Tuvin tribes - earlier known like Urianchai tribes - and this is Tchingis family tribe.
Russians historicians thinks that Temudzin family region was in North -west Mongolia near Chubsugul lake (wher live etnic Tuvinians) or in Sayano-Altay region - todays Tuvin region.
Tuvins epos sayd that temudizin mohyla place was guard from 1000 warriors, from Urianchai tribe. This job was primarly for all this Urianchai warriors and he cant go to the war. Only defense mohyla place. But vith the time place and people who know about this was gone...
In same time Russian television dokumentarists work in same thema. Shaman sacred all this vit ?eagle song? . All team starting from Tuvins Kungurtug village where is ?Tsars lowlands? - skitas kurgans. In Kingurtug village was some time ago found Tchingischans march kettle.

from ?Vesti.Ru

Ashbow · Post by **Ashbow** » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:37 pm

Thanks for the encouragement Dusan

, we should be meeting with few archers in Krak?w soon anyway, I should know soon if we can came up with anything in that matter. They closed the museum temporarily partly because they want to improve on the exhibition, they also want to make the artifacts? labels more informative so maybe there will be some chance to get some more attention to the archery ware.

Jbl, the ?Polish? bow is said to be made in the 17th cent. if I?m not mistaken. I have no clue whether it could be a hunting bow, perhaps a heavily used or left strung for a long time cavalry bow?