Sayas, who invented them?

Rigel · Post by **Rigel** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:48 pm

Hello everybody,

So, who invented the Sayas, I mean, the Scytians didn't have any, right? Was it the Huns or who was it?

Many thanks/Rigel

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:09 am

Don't expect a simple answer to this.

'Scythian' bows (i.e. the Saka of Chinese culture from around 800-700bce) did not have 'siyahs; but they had a fixed 'roller' mechanism which partially performed the finctions of the wheels on a modern compound. So mechanically-assisted draw may have preceded 'siyahs'.

The first obvious siyahs in the East were those of the tribes that arose in Northern China at the time that the Xiongnu are reported to have become active (Qin to Han). I'm not sure whether there were bows with siyahs in the West that pre-dated that.

S

Rigel · Post by **Rigel** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:56 am

This sounds very interesting. I have never heard of this "fixed 'roller' mechanism" on any bows (accept for the modern compound), is there any pics of this kind of bow?

If we put the question like this; did the hun people use siyahs? If not, what did their bows then look like?

/Rigel

Orda Khan · Post by **Orda Khan** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:30 pm

Rigel wrote:This sounds very interesting. I have never heard of this "fixed 'roller' mechanism" on any bows (accept for the modern compound), is there any pics of this kind of bow?

If we put the question like this; did the hun people use siyahs? If not, what did their bows then look like?

/Rigel

Think of the coiled Spring mechanism inside old watches and you get some idea how the Saka limb tips worked.
The term 'Hunnic' would probably be a better choice. The Huns were very much a mixed bag and should not be looked on as a race so much as a confederacy of peoples. Among Hunnic finds are people of Indo Iranian and Mongoloid origin and various mixtures of the two. The evidence suggests their bows did incorporate siyahs, the Niya M3 (95MN1M3) and the River Gogops bow (reproduced by Andrew Hall) are two good examples of Hunnic bows.

Rigel · Post by **Rigel** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:19 pm

I think I get it, but what was the "coils" made from, some kind of hardened steel? I have never seen those kinds of bows, would be were interesting to see some pictures.
Was this bow very common among the Saka people?

Thanks for the answers

TZH · Post by **TZH** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:35 pm

I think the first "western" example of bows with siyahs is the bow(pieces) of Yrzi. (and siyah boneplates from roman fortess camps from f.e. Hungary, UK and germany)

The bow from Gogops looks almost the same like the one of Moschevaja Balka. The upper arm is 3-8 cm longer than the lower, but is it really a hunnic type bow??

Evan Painter · Post by **Evan Painter** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:11 am

I don't think it was meant that they were actually springs. Scytians had recurved bows, and any recurve that has a significant contact between the string and the bow provides a similar functionality to that of a modern compound, though to a much lesser extent. Essentially, it becomes easier to pull as the string is lifted away from contact with the bow, because this provides a longer arm, and thus more leverage.

I agree, the Yrzi bow is the earliest example in the west that I have read about.

Evan Painter

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:21 am

Not any sort of spring mechanism. Actually, I believe that my avatar (look to the left) shows a Western Han period Saka shooting with one of these bows. I attach an illustration provided some years back by Bede Dwyer.

Rigel · Post by **Rigel** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:59 am

Well that was an illustration I could understand, it makes more sense then some "coiled watch springs".

Thanks again

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:55 am

Basically, I suppose you could call it a rigid. coiled siyah.

Here's another illustration by Bede:

Tapio Manner · Post by **Tapio Manner** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:45 am

I am kind of lost with the dimensions on that drawing! Is it a toy?

TM

TZH · Post by **TZH** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:19 pm

Or a modell? Or 1cm= 1 inch? That would be a nice west scythian bow:-)

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:38 pm

Those measurements were on the original drawing and were used to relate it to the archaeological object it was based on. I came to the conclusion that the Eastern bows were scaled up versions of the western ones. There are images on pottery from the Mediterranean cultures showing larger Scythian style bows too so the larger bows were probably common at both ends of the Scythian bow's distribution.

TZH · Post by **TZH** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:07 am

Thank you, Bede!

I found arround one year ago a page with greek pottery showing amazons, and I saved 15-20 pics with large/small bows:-).

But really: Is the Gogops bow from hunnic age, typ ??

Andrew Hall · Post by **Andrew Hall** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:58 pm

The River Gogops bow was found in the northern Caucasus in the late 19th century, and lost a few decades later (all that remains is a full-size drawing). It was therefore never dating using modern techniques. The archaeological report on it describes it loosely as medieval.
It is smaller than the original Hunnic bows, and shows other feature differences in the large distance between the tip and nock and siyah construction. I would put it before the 8th century Moshcheveya Balka bows, possibly 6-7th C.
It is just one of a multitude of variants of the Hunnic bow developed by the Ancient Turk tribes, one of which lead to the Magyar bow.

Andrew