Kviljos Turkish hornbows

scemdonmez · Post by **scemdonmez** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:58 pm

İmpressive, congrats.

Cem

Kviljo · Post by **Kviljo** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:02 pm

I feel pretty confident there is quite a bit extra meters in the equipment. The string kept hitting my elbow, so the majority of the 12 arrows were not as good as they should have been. My technique is probably pretty bad, at least when it comes to using the siper. I need to get my elbow out of the way while still keeping the arm straight. Maybe it can be done by twisting it in the proper manner.

Anyway, I weighed the arrows today, and they all came in at between 220 and 230 grains. - which is quite high for this bow I think. They are about 7-8mm thick, and all 25 inches long. The overall shape is based on some pishrew arrows which there are measurements of. The fletchings are thin rawhide, and the surface is highly polished. All of good quality pine, without points, and sinew wrapped nocks.

Lukasz:
The place where the arrows landed were perhaps 6 meters lower than from where we shot.

I too used to think that the weather conditions needed to be all equal to be ok. Having realized that the Turkish records probably were shot with a good wind in the back, I am more relaxed with this now. Different conditions will affect the distances a lot, so it is not always useful to compare distances, but it is all just part of the game. I think it makes it even more challenging.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:49 am

Good shots.
Here are some technical comments that might be of use.

The angle of the arrow appears to be less than 30 degrees. This will make a considerable difference to your range. Your figures are already good, but they could be better with the same equipment.

With the fingers of the drawing hand partly open you cannot get the really strong draw you need and the smooth release. Closing the three lower fingers tightly and bearing down on the middle finger with the thumb will make the draw seem less arduous and the release will be quicker.

To get the best clearance of the bow arm, the bow has to be truly vertical and the fist has to be turned slightly to the left. This has to be done at the start of the draw and the string has to be drawn straight back to its full draw position with any deviation towards the face. The axis of the groove of the siper must be the same as the arrow.

Were you getting enough support from the mushamma? This is where there can be a problem which restricts how far you can turn down the bow hand. Normally you would try to have the mushamma a little lower on the bow grip so that the arrow travelled off the siper exactly on level with the arrow pass.

When I make comments on the basis of photographs, I can be misled by the angle and other features of the pictures so I apologise if I have misjudged the actual event.

Kviljo · Post by **Kviljo** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:24 am

Thanks! I'm taking note of this

I thought my angle was fairly good, but I do agree that the pictures tell a different story. It seems I'm lowering the bow arm at the end of the draw. What technique do you use to check the angle?

To be honest, I don't know if the mushamma is proper to my hand and technique. Now that I figured out how to wrap it properly it grips the bow well, but taking the pressure from the bow was the main problem. I guess I need to practice more - since last year I have shot with the siper perhaps two times. I wonder where the pressure of the mushamma is intended to go. I could make a huge mushamma, and get the pressure in the middle of my palm, but I don't think they used such large wrappings?

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:31 am

I have one original mushamma and I made several copies of it. My experience is that the mushamma should be supporting the hypothenar eminence. To get this to work properly you have to tighten the grasp of the bow considerably and, unlike shooting bare handed (without a siper), you tighten the thumb too. The mushamma should be wrapped layer on layer on the back of the bow, but more spread out on the belly.

Regarding the angle, the Turks practiced with the torba on an elevated stand and would have had a coach to help them maintain the proper angle. Nowadays, most flight rules permit the archer to have one coach standing as close as one metre to help get the correct angle. This second person may hold something like a right angle to indicate the the angle. In practice, for the best shot, the angle should be established at the beginning of the draw and a fast smooth draw executed. The longer the arrow is at full draw, the more chance of loss of distance so getting the angle correct after you are at full draw is not efficient.

Kyudohund · Post by **Kyudohund** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:29 am

Bravo!

Peter

Kviljo · Post by **Kviljo** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:57 pm

Hmm, so I'm using the mushamma in a wrong way. I have tucked it below the web between the index finger and thumb. I think it is too small or made of too thin fabric to build up enough to get the right angle if put to support the hypothenar area. It does make more sense to use it that way though. That should eliminate the strenght-issues of my wrist. How thick is your original mushamma? I will have to experiment more with this.

lukasznawalny · Post by **lukasznawalny** » Sat Sep 06, 2014 9:56 am

Kviljo dont get me wrong, I like your bows and style. But I was sportsmen all my life in many kind of sports and I know for sure that any sport need regulations to make equal chance for all competitors, in other way is just fun not serious contest. Im sure that old turkish records was established with strong wind but in old times only turkish archers was flight archery big fans. No limit in weather was for all and chances was equal. Flight archery is now fun for dozen people but I hope in future it will be change. We have huge progres in last 15 years in traditional archery - bow boulding and knowlege transfer - thanks Internet. So I hope flight archery be evolve too in regular international sport.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:28 pm

The mushamma is 76 cm long by 22 mm to 23 mm wide. The cloth is sewn into a tube with the raw edges inside and flattened out so it is roughly three thicknesses of cloth deep. It had been sewn inside out, then the seam was flattened with an iron so the edges lay on either side of the stitching and then the whole thing was turned inside out without disturbing the position of the folded edges. Then it was soaked in hot beeswax.

I duplicated the process and it produced a similar mushamma. I have made them in silk and in cotton and I cannot see any difference in behaviour.

Shooting with the wind was traditional in flight shooting, but it did not always give an advantage because the arrow rises high enough to get caught in a breeze going in different direction. the Turks tested for this with a small smoky fire to see if the upper air was disturbed. It was still a gamble.

Pat Menzies · Post by **Pat Menzies** » Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:38 pm

Still not sure why you would want to flatter the arrow flight with wind.
Why not just shoot in calm conditions instead of lying to yourself?

Kviljo · Post by **Kviljo** » Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:29 pm

Thanks, Bede. So I think my mushamma is about the proper size. I need to play some more with it.

The wind issue is a bit difficult. I agree that it would be better if we could all have the same conditions all the time. It would be easier to compare records from different shoots. In reality it is impossible to control the conditions, and one would have to measure the wind speeds for every event, and have different records lists for different wind conditions. In the end it is probably better to give up, and hope for good conditions. After all, it is a sport of shooting as far as possible. On the other hand it would perhaps be good to take approximate notes of the wind conditions for record shots.

Pat Menzies · Post by **Pat Menzies** » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:02 pm

I agree that we can't control the weather but I don't think people should smugly claim a spectacular record when they were aided by a hurricane tailwind.
We could just have maximal allowable tailwind like they do in Track and Field.
Sending up a helium balloon could give you a good idea of what's going on at the typical flight apex.

lukasznawalny · Post by **lukasznawalny** » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:13 pm

I have friends who shoots flights in Greece, Slovakia and few other countries. They have often very good equipment and skills but results are not impressive. Last time on archery tournament I have spoken with my friend Adam Swoboda, thumb ring master. He is happy owner Adams Karpowicz bow. Best turkish bow I ever seen, about 65 lb. He said that on last flight tournament in Mongolia shot about 300 metres. Bow and archer on highest level but without good weather and landscape condition no good results. Here I see problem. If it is part of game - strong wind, downhill shooting, deserts Its ok , I accepted. But in this option bow, arrows and archer are not most important and this is sad for me.

Kviljo · Post by **Kviljo** » Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:43 pm

Pat, I agree. It would be reasonable to not save records shot in say 20m/s winds. There is a line in there somewhere. But who knows, perhaps the sultans shot the records in such winds? If so, I want to do the same.

Lukasz, don't forget the importance of the flight arrow, and also keep in mind that Adam K. reported of 430 meters from a 70# @ 27" turkish bow. I think these distances are to be expexted of such equipment. But don't worry, I will shoot my bow again in calm weather and report back

lukasznawalny · Post by **lukasznawalny** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:47 am

And on flat field !

. You have right, I dont saw arrows. I belive that is possible shot 400 m with 70 lb turkish in neutral conditions but arrows must be very good.