Kviljos Turkish hornbows

Kviljo · Post by **Kviljo** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:52 pm

I tested the same 65# @ 26" bow in the chronograph tonight with a 193 grain arrow and got 299 fps. This is still only at a 26" draw, measured from the belly of the bow. It seems the bow is quite willing to shoot lighter arrows.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:14 pm

That's a very good result. You should be very pleased.

Pat Menzies · Post by **Pat Menzies** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:53 pm

Couldn't crack 300, eh?

mikekeswick · Post by **mikekeswick** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:06 am

Have you got any pictures of this bow Kviljo?

Kviljo · Post by **Kviljo** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:02 am

Sure, go back to page 27 and previous pages. Lots of pictures

Anyone got recommendations on very solid and lightweight carbon arrows for chronograph testing?

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:02 pm

The real advantages of carbon arrows are their small diameters for the same stiffness. This is important for distance shooting but since the chronograph is a metre in front of the bow the low friction profile is less significant. I am assuming you want ot get the best reading of your initial velocity.

Pat Menzies · Post by **Pat Menzies** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:03 pm

Most flight arrows of carbon are just made from solid carbon rod. You can order that from any composite supplier.
I think there is a Barry Groves article detailing that.
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/flight ... BGeW-kg_IU

Amarutu · Post by **Amarutu** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:36 pm

I'd go for an Aurel Agil or Uhyre.
Hey, the Uhyre is even named Norwegian ... it's a sign

Carbontech Cheetah is pretty light, too.

And ... thak you a lot for sharing these pictures and data. I really like your bows and presentations.

Kviljo · Post by **Kviljo** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:55 pm

Yes, the carbon arrows are only for measuring the initial arrow speed. In other words, shooting them into the target at a distance of 3-4 meters. I had some that were light enough, but they broke in the target... I wonder if the solid rods could become as lightweight as 200 grains at 25 inches long. I will have to check these brands.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:59 am

Carbon rods used in flight shooting are for arrows about 14 inches long and less than 5 mm in diameter. They usually have aluminium nocks and points and razor blade fletching. They are not suitable for shooting from other than centre-shot bows with special rests. Regular carbon arrows can be had down to about 5.5 mm in diameter which is smaller than regular Turkish flight arrows. By using light points, like aluminium, the dynamic stiffness can be increased. Fletching is unnecessary at short distances. If the arrows are hitting the target at an angle, two things are happening. They are not flying through the chronograph straight and they are probably not getting an efficient transfer of the energy of the bow. It would take very large fletching to straighten them out in such a short distance which would dramatically slow them down defeating the purpose of the test.

If your carbon arrows are between 6 and 7 mm in diameter, they will be a good analogue of Turkish arrows for initial velocity. If you move your backstop back you may reduce the damage to the arrows. Only do this if it is safe and the arrows are travelling in a predictable direction.

Kviljo · Post by **Kviljo** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:25 am

Back to the mushamma-issue:

For the last practise round I folded some cotton tissue and taped it to the grip. This is how much volume of the mushamma I need to support the metacarpal area, and also the middle of the palm. What type of hand could allow for combining an original-size mushamma with the angle of the hand?

I really don't get this. Should the siper be angled higher up from my wrist, to allow for a more moderate wrist angle? Should the grip be different altogether?

Perhaps others would share pictures of how they use this kind of equipment?

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 1:31 am

Your mushamma looks more like a Korean traditional bow handle. The mushamma is made from a thin tube of silk or cotton about 20 mm wide when sewn up. On the back of the bow, the mushamma is wound on evenly while on the belly and sides of the bow it is more spread out to support the hand. It is put one while the wax is still warm and the hand is put onto he bow and squeezed to get the right shape before the wax cools. The index and middle fingers are above the mushamma on the back of the grip and the ring and little fingers are below it so you can seen the mushamma between the fingers from then back of the bow.

The fletching on the arrow should be cock feather down. This reduces the drag since with the cock feather up two feathers contact the siper. The combination of the barrelling of the arrow and the way it leaves the siper generally mean the cock feather does not hit the base of the groove as it leaves.

The metacarpal bone of the thumb should be at right angles to the belly of the bow, not facing up or down. The eshik of most original sipers is only a little higher at the rear because under pressure of the draw the base of the thumb moves a few millimetres upward. However, the archer concentrates on the angle of the siper, keeping the head and the centre of the groove at about the same height as each other while the tail is slightly lower. This way the arrow only contacts the siper at one point. These descriptions are based on the bow being level. When flight shooting with the bow elevated, I am talking about the relative positions of the hand, bow and siper.

Kviljo · Post by **Kviljo** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:28 pm

Okay, so I'm starting to be more confident the mushamma simply needs to be made bigger. Murat ?zveri commented on the same issue on Facebook, and he mentioned that he had studied all the mushammas in the Topkapi palace museum. They were all apparently so different in sizes that he concluded there was no standard mushamma. This makes sense, and if so, I bet the one I made would have been consideren quite unusually small.

Anyway, I took some more pictures:

Here is the problem. The mushamma is supporting the palm, but there is far from enough volume to give the correct angle of the siper.

This is the size of it. It is simply wrapped around; spread out a little on the belly and stacked on the back.

Here is what I managed to do after your description, Bede. The mushamma is far to small to support anything.

This is how I used it at the last championship, supporting just the area below the thumb and index finger.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:41 am

I will see if I can find someone to take pictures of the mushamma in use. It helps sometimes to practise with the mushamma, but without the siper, to get the angle of the wrist correct. All the fingers need to be closed to get the correct grasp. This is clear from the surviving photos from Turkey and the written instructions.

Murat is right because the mushamma's size must be related to the hand and the bow.

Sometimes the bow grip is too large. After all, the mushamma is meant to help with a grip that is smaller than usual.

Kviljo · Post by **Kviljo** » Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:46 pm

A friend of mine [Lurz here on atarn] sent me some footage from the last flight shoot we had here. It shows me shooting three arrows from the last turkish bow. I think the video works now: http://youtu.be/saNHvlWrpj8

As you might notice, the siper was really not lined up for the first shot. I'm only a beginner with this kind of equipment, but it is good fun