Making a Magyar bow

Seb_bishop · Post by **Seb_bishop** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:36 pm

Right im soon getting all my materials together to start this bow, ive been speakin to pip bickerstaffe and hes advised me to do a magyar bow, with a core and siyahs of ash, ive done the siyahs and need to get some ash for the core soon, the siyahs ive done are ash, and 3/4" thick, and i have cut a 4" v splice in them m the splice is narrow about 1". hows that? anyone can give more some help that would be great!

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:50 am

Seb; It may be that a fishtail splice was not a feature of that bow but a later improvement to other style bows. I have pondered on that idea. Hopefully Andrew hall has some idea on the subject. jack

Seb_bishop · Post by **Seb_bishop** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:49 am

thanks, im gettin the core hopefully tomorow, should the core be about 1/4" thick, 40" long, 4cm wide, 4" splice. With a magyar bow i should bring the handle in setback ? and glue the riser on the back of the bow?

Andrew Hall · Post by **Andrew Hall** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:35 pm

Seb

From the somewhat limited archaeological evidence it is likely that the Magyar bows had steamed rather than spliced siyahs. The Moshcheveya Balka bow in the St. Petersburg Hermitage had most of the horn nibbled off by rodents so the core is exposed and shows no splices.

The siyahs were probably formed by thinning, steaming and gluing another piece of wood onto the back to stiffen the siyah in a similar manner to Stephen Selby's much earlier Khotan bow. The grip was also probably formed by steaming and gluing a "riser" section to the back (this differs from the Khotan bow).

I know of an archaeological find of an angled-eared bow which does have spliced siyahs - an 11th-12th century Uigur Turk find from Uluguy kurgan 2 in the Transbaikal. This featured long angled ears of a slightly-curved "Hunnic" shape with a 4.5 inch V-splice to the limb but without bone siyah plates.

I have used both steamed and spliced construction. Splicing is easier to get more consistent angles. Your choice.

40 inches from siyah base to siyah base is plenty - my last MB bow was 35". A longer bow will be less stressed but may make it more difficult to find suitable horn. Do you have a very long draw length?

I would leave the core at 1/4" thick during initial construction, but thin down to nearer 1/8" thick after you have glued the horn on (assuming you are not going for a 120lb bow). I don't know whether this is a traditional method but I find the bows rather floppy and difficult to work if the core is thinned before the horn attached. What draw weight are you going for?

Regards

Andrew

Seb_bishop · Post by **Seb_bishop** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:54 pm

Thanks alot !!, i think i woudl like to do it with siyahs, my drawlength is 28" and im only planning on a 45-50# .. Im getting the horn from highland horn, they have 18" long horns ready for me, and im buyin 12 leg sinew , i need some backstrap sinew maybe about 2 . is that enough?

also ive done some siyahs of ash, im not sure if they are correct, they are 10" long, with a narrow 1" wide 4" splice, and 3/4", is that ok.?

Andrew Hall · Post by **Andrew Hall** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:27 pm

Seb

Careful buying 18" horns as the horns get thin at the head end and you will probably lose several inches. The horns would also have to be unusually straight to get virtually all of the remaining length usable. Note that if you are getting complete horns you will get plenty of spare bits which you could use in the handle if the limbs strips are too short, but the strip may still be too narrow at the pointy end for the full width of the limbs.

I usually use more than 12 leg sinews, but I am not very good at processing them economically. What were you planning to do with the backstrap sinew? I just use leg sinew.

A useful hint is to leave finishing the core until you have your horns. You can then adjust the design to match the horns somewhat if required.

Regards

Andrew

Seb_bishop · Post by **Seb_bishop** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:16 pm

thanks, i was goin to use backstrap becuase they are longer. But about the siyahs? have i done them right?. i will get the core tomorrow, and ill wait until i have the horn to start anything.

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:05 am

Andrew; What about designs with the grip piece on the belly? If one built up the siyahs, might it make more sense to place an adjacent piece in back of the limb strip? Lastly, the Khotan bow had the centermost horn strip continue up the length of the siyah. These construction techniques stand apart firmly from Turkic construction.

I find that even a #30 prototype made by this method absolutely requires wrappings above the grip and below the siyah to survive. Aren't bone reinforcing slats scored to accept wrappings at those exact locations? and wouldn't all this be made redundant by Turkic type construction? Just some thoughts. Jack

Andrew Hall · Post by **Andrew Hall** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:25 pm

Seb

A siyah of 10" long, 1" wide at the base is fine. If using bone plates, they would touch at the tip, if not, go for 1/4+" wide. Keep about 3/4" deep in the nock-bulge, depending on the type of wood and grain orientation.

Jack

When querying on designs with grip piece on the belly, do you mean bone grip plates? Also not sure of what you mean by adjacent piece in back of the limb strip. See attached drawing for the siyah construction I used on a bow and may have been done on the originals. I have not tried it without bindings, but I would have thought that the sinew backing would have held it together. I had assumed that the wrappings were to keep the bone plates attached.

As I mentioned before, archaeological remains showing construction are quite rare, so any discussion is based on limited evidence. But earlier "Hunnic" bows appear to have been constructed from separate limbs joined with a scarf joint (Khotan bow, Yingpan M30) or mortice and tenon (Gogops) in the grip. Bone grip belly plates were common during this era, but not fitted to all bows. The mortice and tenon joint in the Gogops bow is scary enough even with bone plates.

Later bows appear to have used a continuous core with a riser glued to the back (as with the more recent Chinese bows). I have not seen any archaeological reports of finds with spliced-in grips, so I don't know when this construction appeared.

Careful with the term "Turkic", as the Hunnic design was developed by the ancient Turkic tribes from the 6th-10th centuries into some distinct Ancient Turkic variants, which are still angle-eared and unrelated to the later Turkish bow. I spent ages trying to sort out the terminology for my forthcoming article in the JSAA, what with bows called Ancient Turkish by the Russian archaeologists, bows used by the Ancient Turkish tribes (of which the Ancient Turkish type is the most common), and the later Turkish type.

Note that the Alan/Khazar bows from Moshcheveya Balka had bone plates on the siyah belly. The related but slightly later Magyar bows lost the belly plates. Not much evidence to indicate at what point in time the horn stopped running part way up the siyah.

Regards

Andrew

Seb_bishop · Post by **Seb_bishop** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:01 pm

The ash has very staright grain so that good, im not sure what bone plates are though ?

Tomaz · Post by **Tomaz** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:26 pm

But earlier "Hunnic" bows appear to have been constructed from separate limbs joined with a scarf joint

Really interesting bit of information. I wonder how well that worked. Scarf joints are not very strong per se. Where the bone plates expected to provide a lot of extra strength in that design?

Andrew Hall · Post by **Andrew Hall** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:26 pm

Seb

The Magyar bows (and many others) were reinforced at the grip and sides of the siyahs by thin bone plates. In virtually all of the archaeological finds, these are the only parts that remain.

There is an article on the Magyar bows with drawings of some of the bone plates on the ATARN main site: http://www.atarn.org/magyar/magyar_2/bow.htm

It is not essential to use bone plates on these bows, at least not a 45-50lb draw weight bow. I have used strips of wood instead. You can also make the siyahs without any side plates by making them a bit wider.

Regards

Andrew

Rapsod · Post by **Rapsod** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:26 pm

Are you sebastian bishop that make good longbows?

Seb_bishop · Post by **Seb_bishop** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:42 pm

Andrew , so the bone plates, are glued on the sides of the length on the siyah, why was this done, also cud i use antler for this?

rapsod , yes i make longbows =]

Seb_bishop · Post by **Seb_bishop** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:43 pm

Andrew , so the bone plates, are glued on the sides of the length on the siyah, why was this done, also cud i use antler for this?

rapsod , yes i make longbows =]

Making a Magyar bow

Making a Magyar bow

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