I wil be happy ,if you say me somthing new about it . Go on.Mongols
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Dusan
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I know Gorelik. I know his work. His drawing reconstruction looks close this armour... I found many of his pics. I am not this person who can be judg in this question . I only believe profesionals in muzeum - specializing in mongols and Golden Horde.Thats all. I only "hunting" pics from Russian sites - discusion about amour is your job , boys. I wil be happy ,if you say me somthing new about it . Go on.
I wil be happy ,if you say me somthing new about it . Go on.-
jack farrell
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Dusan
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Bede
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Dusan
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- Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:29 pm
- Location: Slovakia
Bede , you mean Jacks post ? Because all 3 pics in mi post is the same helmet -only from other sides.4 helm is from Alexanders time for comparison.
I read in russians profesinal archeologist and historicians articles, that its very big problem selected what is tipical from Mongols (hordes) or Rusian warriors armour detailes, because in Mongols (hordes) arme worked and fighting many Russians warriors , slaves, craftsmans etc. Novadays little changing historical mind about strongli border line between russians and mongols(hordes) arme and political interestings . Discovering many historical facts, that some russians aristocracy wery close cooperation vith mongols army, and use this army in his personal war between Rusians aristocracyans from power in Russia. Some aristocracians in historical books have no russian tittle "kniaz" but KAGAN or CHAN...
I read in russians profesinal archeologist and historicians articles, that its very big problem selected what is tipical from Mongols (hordes) or Rusian warriors armour detailes, because in Mongols (hordes) arme worked and fighting many Russians warriors , slaves, craftsmans etc. Novadays little changing historical mind about strongli border line between russians and mongols(hordes) arme and political interestings . Discovering many historical facts, that some russians aristocracy wery close cooperation vith mongols army, and use this army in his personal war between Rusians aristocracyans from power in Russia. Some aristocracians in historical books have no russian tittle "kniaz" but KAGAN or CHAN...
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Chiron
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:54 am
- Location: Zhengzhou China
Mongolians are Xianbei ethnic offspring. After the Tang Dynasty, Mongolia ministries moved to the Mongolian Plateau. 10 century to the 12th century, the Mongolian Plateau has succumb to the Liao and Jin. To about 1200, with the gradual decline of Jin and Mongolian forces gradually strong, Mongolia is no longer tribute to Jin.
In 1206, Kublai's unification of Mongolian ministries, in turn difficult to River (this onon River) to convene the General Assembly at its source, that is, Mongolia profusely, and its "Genghis Khan", the country's "Great Mongolia."
Starting in 1205, Genghis Khan attacked three Xixia. 1211 Mongolia Jin cavalry attack and occupation of both. In 1218, Mongol armies destroyed西辽regime. Offspring set up here at窝阔台Khanate.
From 1219 to 1222, Genghis Khan offensive花剌子模(now Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan area), Capture a number of major cities. La Flower submodule Mahabharata rulers fled to the Caspian Sea at the end of Su-Dan Gudao died. Genghis Khan in 1223 not to send speed Units continue to the west, Ukraine is to overcome at the Grand Duchy of Kiev, after the withdrawal. Genghis Khan once again in 1226 Xixia levy the following year The Last King of Western Xia surrender.
1227 Genghis Khan died at the Helan Mountains. At that time, the Mongol Empire, including the Mongolian Plateau, Northwest China, Northeast China, and part of North China, and Central Asia, West Asia most. Chagatai Khanate after the set up here.
In 1206, Kublai's unification of Mongolian ministries, in turn difficult to River (this onon River) to convene the General Assembly at its source, that is, Mongolia profusely, and its "Genghis Khan", the country's "Great Mongolia."
Starting in 1205, Genghis Khan attacked three Xixia. 1211 Mongolia Jin cavalry attack and occupation of both. In 1218, Mongol armies destroyed西辽regime. Offspring set up here at窝阔台Khanate.
From 1219 to 1222, Genghis Khan offensive花剌子模(now Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan area), Capture a number of major cities. La Flower submodule Mahabharata rulers fled to the Caspian Sea at the end of Su-Dan Gudao died. Genghis Khan in 1223 not to send speed Units continue to the west, Ukraine is to overcome at the Grand Duchy of Kiev, after the withdrawal. Genghis Khan once again in 1226 Xixia levy the following year The Last King of Western Xia surrender.
1227 Genghis Khan died at the Helan Mountains. At that time, the Mongol Empire, including the Mongolian Plateau, Northwest China, Northeast China, and part of North China, and Central Asia, West Asia most. Chagatai Khanate after the set up here.
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Chiron
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- Location: Zhengzhou China
Wokuotai Khanate (1225-1309): this is located in Xinjiang, the Central Asian area. Most of Kublai Khan moved the capital (now Beijing), the support of alibug erefuse Wokuotai Khanate Khan Weaklyand independent. Was the third son of Genghis KhanWokuotai the fief, as holders of Irtysh upstream and east of Lake Balkhash area, leaf density in Metro City (now Xinjiang emin). In 1229, that is profuselyWokuotaiposition, will give his eldest son fief by You. In 1246, inherited by the sweat of expensive, but died after two years. By the sweat of WokuotaiDepartment to the Department ofTuolei. In 1251, the newly appointed Department of sweat MungoWokuotaiKings of repression, with the exception of death, disgrace to move part of the Princes, the land will be sub-delegatedWokuotaiKhanate descendants of Kings and the weak of their potential. Kublai Khan, after the succession, a commitment to Chinese policies, caused by entropyWokuotaiSun Kings are led by the public discontent. The sea has on several occasions have raised an army for the chaos, repeated Shengyuan Army, a major threat to the Yuan Dynasty. 1301, sea and are more than 40 kings together rebel soldiers invaded the Yuan Dynasty, people wishing to replace them, but at Kamal and Lin Yuan-jun by the defeat, and soon perish sea sick. In 1310, the son eight visits by children for the Chagatai Khanate defeats khanatesWokuotaideath.
Chagatai Khanate (1227 -1369 years): this is located in Xinjiang, the Central Asian area. By Kublai Khan,Alibugeforces such as competition for time and again. This was the second son of Genghis Khan Chagatai's fief, the early holders of the oldliao, including the North and the South Tianshan and Amu Darya, Syr Darya between land, capital of Ali Mari (now Xinjiang Huocheng). In 1310 and merged most of the Wokuotai Khanate Territory
, Tatsu and powerful country in the heyday of its territory from Turpan East, West and the Amu Darya, north to tarbagatay Taishan, Nanda Hindu Kush mountain. Mongolian military aristocracy with the local Turkic nomadic aristocracy together constitute the ruling class, spare no effort in maintaining the feudal system of nomadic patriarchal relations. Turkic Mongols relatively common phenomenon. The mid-14th century, khanates divided into East and West 2. East Chagatai Khanate Khanate licensed Wokuotai old and sparse western Xinjiang attached for all, after further division, the 16th century have been re-incorporated into the Chinese. West Chagatai Khanate holders of the river, so as to Samarkand as the capital in 1370 by Timur seizing.
QinchaKhanate (1219 - 1502 years): this is located in Bulgaria, European Russia, North Caucasus, a part of Walazimo, Ross Yuan States States for itsSubsidiary
forBaducreated. Genghis Khan had once conquered by the Weihai, the Caspian Sea, north of the vast grasslandQinchafief given to the eldest son ofSuchi. In 1235, the eldest son ofSuchiwestBaduRussia and Eastern Europe, the exemptions to the broad masses of the east from Yenisey River, west to the Danube River, south Caucasus, the north by Russia. West end of 1243, the Lower Volga RiverBaduto the sale for all, builtQinchaKhanate. Golden color due to sweat-off, the Russian people, also known as the Golden Horde. Later itBaduthe Aral Sea to the northeast of Shandong enfeoffment turn give flowers, saying the White khanates account to Weihai, north, west to the Ural River to give closure Celecoxib classes, said Blue khanates account, both are required payment account Khan sovereign. Golden Horde territory generally composed of two parts, one for grasslands and other nomadicQinchaareas, one for Russia and other farming areas. Mongolians from place to place and wish to rule, nomadic areas of direct control by the Mongols, the focal point for the khanate. The Russian regions are preserved in its original Kings of the feudal regime in public, and then be controlled, Kings public tribute to the Khan to concede defeat and accept canonized. Since the beginning of 13 century, the Mongols from Russian Kings of the public in choosing the most tame, and called "the Grand Duchy of Vladimir and All Russia", closures were based on gold account Khan's favor, the right is responsible for collection of All-Russian around the Gong Fu, unified account Khan handed over to Kim. Russian Kings of the public have a quest for the title of the Grand Duchy of mutual competition, cruel struggle, or the informant Khan, which is on the account to eliminate the opponent, or direct war. Mongolians are using this strategy, can reap the profits, achieve control of Russia.
Since the mid-14th century founding to 100 years, the Golden Horde State are potential time heyday. Mongolia steppe aristocracy gradually andQinchaaristocratic nomadic tribes merge, change turkic fuck, to comply with Islam, with the adjacent khanates fight abuse in Iraq and other places of Azerbaijan, often do not tame a crusade to force the Russian nobility. In 1341, Uzbek Khan's death, domestic conflicts, internal strife about. In particular, are growing stronger and stronger in the Principality of Moscow and Central Asia, the emerging anti timur Empire, the country increasingly fading potential. The 15th century, the Golden Horde split into Kazan, the Crimea, Astrakhan, Siberia Khanate, etc..
Iraq abuse Khanate (1256 ~ 1388): located in the Caucasus, Iran, Iraq and other places, in order to旭烈兀created. For the three sub-Tuoleiexpedition旭烈兀khanates built in West Asia. In 1264, Kublai Khan officially canonized profusely for the Iraqi children旭烈兀Khan. Their country from阿姆尔East River, west to the Mediterranean, the North arrived in the Caucasus, the south Indian Ocean, the capital of Tabriz.
Iraq abuse pre-Khanate, Khan because of the various expeditions frequently, people living in dire poverty, Mongolia and the United Turkic aristocratic dictatorship, stick backward nomadic mode of production, farmers and settlers of the town pressed the purposes of policy, with the result that the national economy is sluggish and society is sparsely populated, barren land, people continued to resist , social order turbulence restless.
1295, Taiwan's Chan-Khan succession, in order to save a critical situation. Easing social conflicts, to abandon the traditional policy, the full implementation of the Islamic-oriented reforms in order to win the support of many Muslim aristocracy, and consolidate the rule of the feudal order. Rate of the armed forces him to abandon the original religious beliefs, to comply with Islam, and as the state religion; vigorously promote Arab conventional militaryTerritorysystem, will be strictly peasant fixation on at land to the licensed serviceTerritorywho pay rents; the abolition of tax system, under the provisions of tax rates, severely punish those who over-levy; unified currency and weights and measures to develop industrial and commercial tax; encourage the cultivation, build roads, reduction of post-chuan, and approved the amount of soldiers, the prohibition of corruption; incentives cultural, academic advocacy. Thus the early 14th century, the Iraqi children khanates greater socio-economic recovery, feudal rule was strengthened, and the Islamic culture there is a considerable development. All praise Khan at the palace, the aggregation of many writers and scholars. His prime ministerConfidantpull Streichert sorrow edited by Kenneth historical masterpiece "history collection" Communication has to stay.
In 1304, with the death of Chan-Khan. Shortly thereafter, the situation in Iraq abuse Khan at home and abroad has become increasingly serious. Inside there is an indisputable Kings lap,Power allocationpower struggle, infighting after another; outside Egypt have wooden horse Luke dynasty and constantlyQinchakhanates invaders, Guoyun Day Organization, in a split. In 1388, eventually emerging Timurid Empire in Central Asia are out.
Chagatai Khanate (1227 -1369 years): this is located in Xinjiang, the Central Asian area. By Kublai Khan,Alibugeforces such as competition for time and again. This was the second son of Genghis Khan Chagatai's fief, the early holders of the oldliao, including the North and the South Tianshan and Amu Darya, Syr Darya between land, capital of Ali Mari (now Xinjiang Huocheng). In 1310 and merged most of the Wokuotai Khanate Territory
, Tatsu and powerful country in the heyday of its territory from Turpan East, West and the Amu Darya, north to tarbagatay Taishan, Nanda Hindu Kush mountain. Mongolian military aristocracy with the local Turkic nomadic aristocracy together constitute the ruling class, spare no effort in maintaining the feudal system of nomadic patriarchal relations. Turkic Mongols relatively common phenomenon. The mid-14th century, khanates divided into East and West 2. East Chagatai Khanate Khanate licensed Wokuotai old and sparse western Xinjiang attached for all, after further division, the 16th century have been re-incorporated into the Chinese. West Chagatai Khanate holders of the river, so as to Samarkand as the capital in 1370 by Timur seizing.
QinchaKhanate (1219 - 1502 years): this is located in Bulgaria, European Russia, North Caucasus, a part of Walazimo, Ross Yuan States States for itsSubsidiary
forBaducreated. Genghis Khan had once conquered by the Weihai, the Caspian Sea, north of the vast grasslandQinchafief given to the eldest son ofSuchi. In 1235, the eldest son ofSuchiwestBaduRussia and Eastern Europe, the exemptions to the broad masses of the east from Yenisey River, west to the Danube River, south Caucasus, the north by Russia. West end of 1243, the Lower Volga RiverBaduto the sale for all, builtQinchaKhanate. Golden color due to sweat-off, the Russian people, also known as the Golden Horde. Later itBaduthe Aral Sea to the northeast of Shandong enfeoffment turn give flowers, saying the White khanates account to Weihai, north, west to the Ural River to give closure Celecoxib classes, said Blue khanates account, both are required payment account Khan sovereign. Golden Horde territory generally composed of two parts, one for grasslands and other nomadicQinchaareas, one for Russia and other farming areas. Mongolians from place to place and wish to rule, nomadic areas of direct control by the Mongols, the focal point for the khanate. The Russian regions are preserved in its original Kings of the feudal regime in public, and then be controlled, Kings public tribute to the Khan to concede defeat and accept canonized. Since the beginning of 13 century, the Mongols from Russian Kings of the public in choosing the most tame, and called "the Grand Duchy of Vladimir and All Russia", closures were based on gold account Khan's favor, the right is responsible for collection of All-Russian around the Gong Fu, unified account Khan handed over to Kim. Russian Kings of the public have a quest for the title of the Grand Duchy of mutual competition, cruel struggle, or the informant Khan, which is on the account to eliminate the opponent, or direct war. Mongolians are using this strategy, can reap the profits, achieve control of Russia.
Since the mid-14th century founding to 100 years, the Golden Horde State are potential time heyday. Mongolia steppe aristocracy gradually andQinchaaristocratic nomadic tribes merge, change turkic fuck, to comply with Islam, with the adjacent khanates fight abuse in Iraq and other places of Azerbaijan, often do not tame a crusade to force the Russian nobility. In 1341, Uzbek Khan's death, domestic conflicts, internal strife about. In particular, are growing stronger and stronger in the Principality of Moscow and Central Asia, the emerging anti timur Empire, the country increasingly fading potential. The 15th century, the Golden Horde split into Kazan, the Crimea, Astrakhan, Siberia Khanate, etc..
Iraq abuse Khanate (1256 ~ 1388): located in the Caucasus, Iran, Iraq and other places, in order to旭烈兀created. For the three sub-Tuoleiexpedition旭烈兀khanates built in West Asia. In 1264, Kublai Khan officially canonized profusely for the Iraqi children旭烈兀Khan. Their country from阿姆尔East River, west to the Mediterranean, the North arrived in the Caucasus, the south Indian Ocean, the capital of Tabriz.
Iraq abuse pre-Khanate, Khan because of the various expeditions frequently, people living in dire poverty, Mongolia and the United Turkic aristocratic dictatorship, stick backward nomadic mode of production, farmers and settlers of the town pressed the purposes of policy, with the result that the national economy is sluggish and society is sparsely populated, barren land, people continued to resist , social order turbulence restless.
1295, Taiwan's Chan-Khan succession, in order to save a critical situation. Easing social conflicts, to abandon the traditional policy, the full implementation of the Islamic-oriented reforms in order to win the support of many Muslim aristocracy, and consolidate the rule of the feudal order. Rate of the armed forces him to abandon the original religious beliefs, to comply with Islam, and as the state religion; vigorously promote Arab conventional militaryTerritorysystem, will be strictly peasant fixation on at land to the licensed serviceTerritorywho pay rents; the abolition of tax system, under the provisions of tax rates, severely punish those who over-levy; unified currency and weights and measures to develop industrial and commercial tax; encourage the cultivation, build roads, reduction of post-chuan, and approved the amount of soldiers, the prohibition of corruption; incentives cultural, academic advocacy. Thus the early 14th century, the Iraqi children khanates greater socio-economic recovery, feudal rule was strengthened, and the Islamic culture there is a considerable development. All praise Khan at the palace, the aggregation of many writers and scholars. His prime ministerConfidantpull Streichert sorrow edited by Kenneth historical masterpiece "history collection" Communication has to stay.
In 1304, with the death of Chan-Khan. Shortly thereafter, the situation in Iraq abuse Khan at home and abroad has become increasingly serious. Inside there is an indisputable Kings lap,Power allocationpower struggle, infighting after another; outside Egypt have wooden horse Luke dynasty and constantlyQinchakhanates invaders, Guoyun Day Organization, in a split. In 1388, eventually emerging Timurid Empire in Central Asia are out.
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Chiron
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:54 am
- Location: Zhengzhou China
Chinese Ming Dynasty-style armor Mongolia
Experience tells us that a lot of the conquered country will retain the traces of the conquerors, the experience of a friend be able to explain the above response to the queries raised.
This is the early period of Ming Dynasty Chinese armor. Prior to this Chinese was once ruled by the Mongolian conqueror 80 years, so the early Ming dynasty style and Mongolian armor armor surprisingly similar
This is the early period of Ming Dynasty Chinese armor. Prior to this Chinese was once ruled by the Mongolian conqueror 80 years, so the early Ming dynasty style and Mongolian armor armor surprisingly similar
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Bede
- Posts: 2360
- Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:57 am
- Location: Sydney, Australia
Chiron,
Are you sure these are early period Ming paintings? The armour has more resemblance to the Qing armour (it has the base armour as a sleeveless jacket with a lower part with two thigh pieces) than to the Mongol which often had the body and the thigh pieces in one piece like Song armour and Jin armour.
Later period Ming depictions of armour look much more like the Qing ones as does your painting. Sometimes paintings of historical events earlier in the dynasty are labelled as if they were done at the same time, when in reality they were painted in a different century. This happens in Western art a lot too.
Are you sure these are early period Ming paintings? The armour has more resemblance to the Qing armour (it has the base armour as a sleeveless jacket with a lower part with two thigh pieces) than to the Mongol which often had the body and the thigh pieces in one piece like Song armour and Jin armour.
Later period Ming depictions of armour look much more like the Qing ones as does your painting. Sometimes paintings of historical events earlier in the dynasty are labelled as if they were done at the same time, when in reality they were painted in a different century. This happens in Western art a lot too.
Bede
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Chiron
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:54 am
- Location: Zhengzhou China
Bede：
This is a Chinese painting, "a police map" of the draw are the Chinese Ming Dynasty emperor eleventh term Jiajing emperor (1521 - 1566) tour of inspection of the scene, this time in the late Ming Dynasty, you can see the map samurai armor are what kind of style.
Qing Dynasty armor are Potaninia A, regardless of style or the protective principle has made great improvements, it is an external multi-Chien-Hou dense cotton or silk internal mosaic iron sheets and copper fixed on the cold steel and firearms have good protection role. Mian A principle similar to the existing protective Kevlar, and has a certain role in cold, very suitable to use the Manchu cavalry infantry north. Compared to the Ming dynasty armor, the armor of the Qing Dynasty is a revolution.
Chiron
This is a Chinese painting, "a police map" of the draw are the Chinese Ming Dynasty emperor eleventh term Jiajing emperor (1521 - 1566) tour of inspection of the scene, this time in the late Ming Dynasty, you can see the map samurai armor are what kind of style.
Qing Dynasty armor are Potaninia A, regardless of style or the protective principle has made great improvements, it is an external multi-Chien-Hou dense cotton or silk internal mosaic iron sheets and copper fixed on the cold steel and firearms have good protection role. Mian A principle similar to the existing protective Kevlar, and has a certain role in cold, very suitable to use the Manchu cavalry infantry north. Compared to the Ming dynasty armor, the armor of the Qing Dynasty is a revolution.
Chiron
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Last edited by Chiron on Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bede
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Chiron
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Alam ed Din, Adnan
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Stephen Selby
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