arrows going to the right with the thumb draw technique

Ashbow · Post by **Ashbow** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:50 am

I started to practice the thumb draw recently and discovered a problem which I?m not able to overcome in any way. My arrows every time hit right of the target (I?m a right hander; holding the bow in left, arrow on the right side of the bow). Now after some time, when I?ve started to feel quite comfortable with the thumb draw, even when there can be tight grouping, the problem doesn?t disappear. I haven?t shot further distances than say some 15-20yards, but further of the target the problem seems to be worse.
I really don?t know where the problem is, I don?t think I?m using to much pressure on the nock with the index finger (or I just think so), also I can?t see arrows hitting the handle.
I don?t feel like creeping forward also.
Maybe I shall change my bow hand grip, put different pressure on the handle? For now I?m using a leather thumb guard (it isn?t really painful as it seemed to be

), could it be then a problem with the shape of the guard (the bowstring sits in the joint of the flexed thumb)? Maybe I flex the thumb to much?
I?m afraid it would be better to start with lighter bow than I have (50-55#) and try to train to shoot with both hands like Stephen recommended but I just couldn?t resist.

Here is a video of me shooting;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qgA4sTF ... annel_page

I would be very, very grateful if anyone could give me some tip what I may be doing wrong though I know it?s hard to tell when you can?t see someone shooting.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:47 pm

It is hard to tell from the video. Your form is good. The right elbow may be a bit high sometimes but that would not contribute.

If you are getting groups to the right, then there are a few possibilities. You may be aiming with the left edge of the bow, which can cause a stiff arrow to go right. It does not look like you are leaning your head over the arrow, but that can deflect the nock of the arrow to the left of your line of sight and cause a rightwards deflection.

There is a test you can do. Cant the upper limb of the bow to the right and aim over the "V" formed by the left edge of the bow and you left index finger knuckle. Try this first edge onto the target and then modify your stance by facing the target more squarely until your arrows start landing to the left.

The old books often talk about the different stances needed for different shaped bodies. This is a way of testing that.

I am assuming you are accurate in knowing how much pressure your index finger is putting on the nock. You can rotate the wrist of the drawing hand to move the index finger away from the nock. However, you risk hitting the tip of the indexfinger with the string if you go to far.

Only try one thing at a time. You might find just doing something different will change where the arrows land even if it doesn't seem logical at the time.

M??a · Post by **M??a** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:20 pm

Itś normal. I have the same problem using mediterran style.
The first mistake may be pressure of your index finger to the arrow (arrow is bended to the bow), the second may be too hard arrow. Using thumb release,spin of arrow isńt as important as in European archery , but for short distances itś better to use correct spin and large flething. Try to take down spin on the one arrow with sandpaper (I?m using drillmachine and arrow is fixed by arrowpoint) between center and fletching, or havier arrowpoint.
Second way is to try release without any contact with nock

Ashbow · Post by **Ashbow** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:36 pm

Thank you gentlemen

Bede,
I will do the tests as soon as I get some time to practise and I will try to keep my right elbow lower now.
Thanks again, every piece of advice counts.

I need to carefully read the technique chapters in ?Saracen Archery?.

M??a,
I use the same arrows which I normally use with the three finger loose (so far). They are 28?long, were spined roughly the same as the bow (50-55#) and are a bit tapered so I don?t think they are too stiff. I have shoot lower spined arrows with the same effect too. But I will consider your tip as I know the correct arrow spine can be a very "personal" thing and general guides don't always apply.

I hope you have solved your problem with the Mediterranean loose?
I suppose your arrows were not landing as far to the right as mine (30-40cm

).

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:30 am

Have you tried standing 20 metres from the target and shooting into the ground 5 meters ahead of you (half draw.) Then 'walk' the arrow towards the target shooting one metre forward each time until you hit the target. Don't try to aim: just look at the point that you intend to shoot at. See if that helps.

jiao · Post by **jiao** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:15 am

i'm not know why here a lots west members use thumbring draw and in china lots archers use three fingers, a reverse world it is ,many greet advice but differ, i can believe it is perfect

sorry stephen, i can know each word you post but i still can not know what your right mean

Have you tried standing 20 metres from the target and shooting into the ground 5 meters ahead of you (half draw.)

靶子在20米外，半开弓射前方5米处的地面
Then 'walk' the arrow towards the target shooting one metre forward each time until you hit the target.

然后每隔一米逐次射直至中靶

Don't try to aim: just look at the point that you intend to shoot at. See if that helps
不要用瞄准的方法，只是看直线的指向

a so bad translate?i can not know,thanks

Kyudohund · Post by **Kyudohund** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:38 am

Hi Ashbow,

the same problem exists in KYUDO. My teacher in Tsukuba (Japan) tested Yumis (japanese bows) with a shooting machine. At a distance from 28m the arrow landed 1,5m right to the target. It makes the width of the bow, the string tendences to go to the bow-mid and the arrow gets an angle to the right, during stretching of the bow in release. So we keep the bowhandjoint straight, push our thumbroot towards the target and pull the part of the palm, where the little finger is, the other direction. So you twist the bow in full draw and in release this is speeded up as strong as possible.
Too you can ask somebody to aim you in, by looking over your arrow from behind in full draw and corrects you to left or right, until your arrow points straight into the target.
I hope this helps a bit.

Peter

Alex S. · Post by **Alex S.** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:21 pm

Mr Selby,

Do you say to shoot instinctively?
Get feel for how bow behaves and then try shooting?

I find it difficult to try to hit something if I aim, so that is what I do.
However, this only works until you change your arrow set, then you need 'relearn' the bows behavior but it gets easier with experience...
(Unless your arrow are well matched as ones before)

If you shoot a bow enough, you should be able build memory in brain and then it should become second nature thing, like throwing a stone or ball.
Do you aim when you throw a stone at something??

JJ · Post by JJ » Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:05 pm

I had the same problem when I tried thumb ring shooting the first time. A friend told me to cant the bow to the right side (upper limb). It works for me... If it doesn?t help, turn the bow even more to the right.

JJ

Ashbow · Post by **Ashbow** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:33 pm

Stephen,
I started my practice as you have advised shooting at the ground ahead of me, later at the close target using only half of the draw length (arrows were landing to the right from the beginning) but maybe I have started with the full draw over hastily. I shall try it one more time.

Stephen Selby wrote;

Then 'walk' the arrow towards the target shooting one metre forward each time until you hit the target.

When I ?walk? arrows closer toward the target boss shall I still using only half the draw or should I draw the bow more fully?

Jiao,
Yes, that?s quite interesting how tastes and habits change with the time.
Incidentally the Poland (where I come form) is an European country, where the thumb draw had quite strong traditions, especially during (circa) XVI and XVII cent. when the composite horn bow of Turkish and Tatar design was one of the main Polish weapon, as an aside because of the adopting from the East the pattern of the light cavalryman using a composite bow this led to the fact that Poland was one of the latest European country to abandon the use of the bow as a weapon of war; into the XVIII cent. noblemen were still carrying quivers as an element of the costume and women were even wearing arrows in they hair like a piece of jewellery.

Peter,
I shall try to experiment with different pressure on the handle.
I?m curious, can you tell me is it always the case to twist the Yumi as you described? I think I have read there are some schools teaching to twist Yumi during the full draw more and those that teach to don?t ( supposedly excessive twisting it?s not so ?healthy? for the bow). Can you tell me if I recall it right or did I make it up?

I have checked a couple of times during the full draw if my arrows are in line with the mark by leaning the head over the arrow for a second and then retreated again. I will have to ask someone for assistance.

JJ,
I will follow your and Bede?s advice about canting the bow definitely, your success is my hope

.

And that?s why ATARN is so wonderful,
thank you all again.

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:35 am

My comment about half draw was just to stop you letting off too powerful a shot when you are shooting at the ground or you are near the target. If you can draw fully and not damage your arrows, then go for it.

Yes, this is training for instinctive shooting.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:41 am

The comments about pressure on the bow are a useful idea. With a Middle Eastern as opposed to Korean grasp of the bow, you push forward with the area between the base of the thumb and base of the index finger and squeeze tightly with the middle, ring and little fingers. This was mentioned earlier. The pressure, like the clenching of the draw hand is related to the strength of the bow. You squeeze harder if the bow is strong.

It was also said that when you change from the Mediterranean to the thumb style of shooting, you notice arrows going to the right. It works both ways. If you are used to shooting with a thumb ring and change to three fingered shooting, the arrows go to the left considerably.

I am assuming that the problem is not this normal readjustment, but even it will be overcome by trying the variations of style we have been suggesting.

Good luck.

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:41 am

Stand 20 metres from the target and shoot into the ground 5 meters ahead of you (half draw.)
靶子约在20米外，先半开弓射前方5米的地面
Then 'walk' the arrow towards the target shooting one metre forward each time until you hit the target.
然后每隔一米逐次射截至中靶
Don't try to aim: just look at the point that you intend to shoot at. See if that helps
不用瞄准，只要直望所射的地点。
[/quote]

是对的。 谢谢您！

JJ · Post by JJ » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:33 pm

Ashbow, it?s very interesting to hear about the bow in Poland until 18th century as a military weapon. I?d like to know more about that. Where can I find more detailed information (unfortunately I can?t read polish)?

JJ

Ashbow · Post by **Ashbow** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:57 pm

JJ,
Unfortunately I don?t know if there are some more detailed works concerning archery in Poland written in languages other than Polish. There are as well very few books concerning the subject in Polish, even those existing are not very satisfying works and you need to be able to select the correct information when reading them.

If you would like to read some general overview try to get the Journal of the Society of Archer-Antiquaries, volume 44. 2001 and read the article ?The bow in Poland? by Andrzej Abratowski (he is already a member of the forum). There you would find a short bibliography on the subject as well (unfortunately mainly Polish works).

Maybe you would be able to source some texts concerning some military conflicts in Poland of the period.
I hope maybe Bede or someone else could quote you some different sources in other languages.

If you have some specific questions just ask, hope there will be answer for it.