Maximum practical draw weights for horseback archery?

[Stephen Selby]

Referring to the quotes from Qi Jiguang and Li Chengfen, there are two issues. One one hand they are saying 'don't exhaust yourself' There is also an element that when on horseback, don't draw too far back (i.e. arrowhead right up to the grip, as in normal shooting) because you might overdraw in the heat of the moment. On the other hand, they don't want you to under-draw and lose power and accuracy.

[Alan Flashing]

Bede , This sounds correct about culture and time differences as to the useful draw weight, so could we take specific cultures and time periods and come up with a generally agreed upon figure for the useful draw weight used used in mounted archery say for the Mughal period , Yuan period and so forth?
Regards,
Alan

[Bede]

There appears to have been a bit of an arms race from the time of the Blue Turks into the late 17th Century. Bow weights went up. Recurvature was reintroduced. The two streams of heavy arrows and long draws and light arrows and short draws separated.

Judging from Adam's assessment of the war bows in Topkapi, the Ottomans were using very heavy bows in the 16th-17th centuries. Qing books also speak of 100 pound plus bows (in one case a 250 pound bow used in a special heavy bow target competition).

After the reconstruction of the Mary Rose bows, the general impression of the strength of war bows around the world has had to be reassessed. Hunting bows don't require the power, not to target bows generally. the exception is the zarb bows for penetration shooting in Turkey.

[Gokmen]

I will make a citation here from the book ?Sultan II. Mahmud Devri ve Turk Kemankesleri? from Suleyman Kani Irtem
I translate it (I hope without mistakes):
?During festivities in the Atmeydani in Istanbul Tozkoparan Iskender rides full gallop, shoots an arrow and pierces five iron kalkans (shields) which he put together. These kalkans were displayed until the year 1000 (1591/1592?)in the Janissary training quarters, the ones who have seen the kalkans prayed for him.? (page 205)

One can only guess what poundage the bow must have, lets not forget this is the famous flight archer Tozkoparan Iskender, so he is definitely not a standard soldier..

One more small input from me regarding draw weights on horseback in old times; one should have a closer look at ?Divanu Lugati?t- Turk? from Kasgarli Mahmut (the first Turkish dictionary with examples of peotry etc.) and the ?Dede Korkut? book with stories of the Turks reaching back to pre-Islamic times. There they mention spesifically ?heavy? bows (for horseback use). So now of course it doesnt give us any indication of how heavy, but most probably one warrior possessed several bows with one being ?heavy? e.g. to pierce armour better..

cheers

Gokmen

[Bede]

Gokmen,
I think you have made a good point. Heavy bows have their uses and many peoples have been described as carrying more than one bow. If you had a special bow for a particular purpose like armour-piercing and another for shooting harassing arrows at long distance, you would be a more versatile soldier.

[Gokmen]

What about thinking of what we can do today and draw a line back and imagine what was used in the old days?

I am very much interested in using heavy bows with the Ottoman technique.
So far I can draw 120lbs bows. On horseback I am very comfortable with bows up to 80 lbs. 90 lbs is slower to shoot, 100 lbs is a challenge for me on horseback

I am just an ordinary guy training archery as a hobby.

Now, if we imagine a Seljuk warrior whose life depends on horseback archery, who grew up doing nothing else but shoot arrows on horseback, one can imagine that 100+ bows had to be normal.

Besides, I am reading in the book "Osmanli Devletinde Spor" where the sport habits of the Seljuks and Ottomans are described. People used to train with weights like today's bodybuilders (Iranian "Zurkhane" is similar). But furthermore it wasnt dead muscles, e.g. they wrestled a lot..

And once you have the strength, to draw an armour piercing 130 lbs bow in a fast rate, why should you go back down to an 80 lbs bow?

cheers

Gokmen

[Alan Flashing]

Gokmen, I too am keenly interested in using relatively heavy bows, would like to be proficient on horse back with an 80# bow.
Alan