Polovets stone statues

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:37 am

Baba is also a Turkish word meaning father or forefather. It is perhaps a mistake to think that because the Russians once ruled an area that all the words used there come from the Russian language. The local Turks probably referred to these statues as their "forefathers".

The Polovets are also referred to at the Pechenegs. There are many references to them in Byzantine histories as well as early Russian chronicles.

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:35 pm

Well, before Russians live here Slavs , but this is another theme. Yes , maybe its turkic word , but stil i think that, if it is Turkic or not, "baba" say about that people who give stones name ,live much more later and know about kurgans only , that here lie his very old relative- "baba".

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:05 am

Dusan,
There is extensive literature on this in Russian and English. The Wikipedia entry on Balbals believes the word was simplified into Baba by the loss of the "l". The origin of the word is given as Kirghiz. This is an accessible way to find the references even if you don't agree with all the conclusions.

Since the term is generic now and is used for many types of carved standing stones, there is bound to be confusion. There are even some early Slavic statues mentioned pre-dating Christianity among the Slavs.

I have seen an article from G. V. Kubarev, who may be the son of the Siberian (Russian) archaeologist, Vladimir Kubarev, who I met many years ago. There are some very good people in this field.

Szabi Nagy · Post by **Szabi Nagy** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:57 pm

Well, Cumans (Kuns here) are still doing fine and respect their forefathers as this relatively new stuff close to the town Karcag (midlde Hungary) indicates.
Szabi
Kun-baba

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:04 pm

Interesting Szaby. This is modern reminiscens or historical long tradition? I mean , is in this teritory old sculptures too ?

Szabi Nagy · Post by **Szabi Nagy** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:45 pm

These sculptures are contemporary. They indicate that the people of this area still feel connected with their roots. I don't know about old baba-findings here, but my knowledge is biased (I'm not a kun).
Szabi

Chiron · Post by **Chiron** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:19 am

This is Xilin Gol League in Inner Mongolia in China, the Turkic people found the statue, where a large number, from the modeling point of view there is men and women, the elderly have also have children, most of them in about 1.3 meters.

Gleb · Post by **Gleb** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:31 pm

Just in case to clear up the situation with all that nomadic Turkic peoples once lived in the steppes of Ukraine and Russia. They replaced each other in a quite nonrepetitive sequence.

The Pechenegs (Patzinaks, Kangars) are Turkic people that occupied the modern Ukrainian and Russian steppes from 9 to late 11 centuries AD. They forced out nomadic Magyars that lived there before (so called Atelcusa region). In their turn during 11 century they were force out from that region by Torks (that were a part of Oghuz Turks). Torks lived thre for a very short time – to the late 11 century when Torks were drive out by Polovets who roamed there until the Mongol army came in 1236-41.

Gleb · Post by **Gleb** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:02 pm

On the Russian term for the Polovets' sculpture ("baba"):

In Russian chronicles the first mention of the word “baba” as applied to the Polovets' sculpture occurred in 1398 AD. Even earlier the similar sculpture was mentioned as “bolvan” in “The Tale of Igor's Campaign” dated end of the 12th century. Some researchers derive the Russian term from Turkic “baba” (father, forefather), other from ancient Orkhon Turkic “balbal” (but the true meaning of this word lost: “statue”, “stone with inscription” as suppositions), some from Iranian “pahlaban” ((epic) hero; athlete).

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:39 pm

Maybe needed say the "bolvan" is - stone.

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:07 am

Gleb; If you go back further into the history of Ukraine, in 700BC peoples called Cimmerians lived there. I do not know how long. Then Scythians-Skyfs who had been pushed west made them leave without a fight to avoid annihilation; they killed their own leaders who said to stay and fight. And then the Cimmerians left and destroyed the area of the Near East. (Herodotus)

Joseph Stalin did his best to move as many Turkic folks back to Central Asia in exactly the same manner. But I do not mean to open up politics.

Also language changes over the centuries. I can hardly understand Shakespear from only 500 years ago. I have an illustration that I got in Central Asia showing a great tree of names. The three great branches of that tree are Huns, Skifs, and Turks.

Whatever those stones are, I will just call them balbal because of the literature in English written on them.

And now my point. If a balbal is holding a cup, this is not a guardian, this is a sign of welcome. Among the Turks the first thing to do is to offer drink, and then food. When you arrive this is offered three times. If in another he holds a sword, maybe this is a guardian.

Chiron's balbal wears a belt with many plates. Therefore he is an important man offering drink. What do you think guys?

Ashbow · Post by **Ashbow** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:10 am

That is very interesting.
The word bolvan is very close to Polish (Slavic) word bałwan which (like Gleb mentioned) used to mean a statue of an idol in pre-Christian times, after the conversion to Christianity the word gained a pejorative meaning to make people think negatively of the former beliefs.
I suppose now not many people in Poland can connect that word to it?s original meaning.

I?m not surprised to hear that the word baba as used by Slavs could be of Turkish origin as there is plenty of such words in contemporary Polish language, among them some archery related terms e.g. sajdak - bow case.

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:46 am

Jack mi English is so bad , than i cant starting complicated discusion about history .(or about anything more precise...

)But in very short version. I dont know what about mean Gleb but for me - Slavs live in all asia much more earlier ,then we can imagine. This is somthing absurd to todays historicians and archeologists but... You know. History write vinners. Isnt it ?

Early Kingdoms have name of his kings and his honor people are his tribe soldiers, who do you mean work from him all food, armour, art things from gold to bronze or iron, konstruct his palaces and etc. You believ that his soldiers ? Or prisoner of war-another warriors ? All big kingdoms in history starting from the same scenario- no so big ,but very agresive nomad warrior tribe or tribes ataccking territory where live agricultural no fighting people ( about 80 years archeology talking about- first time when find in Switzerland lake farmer culture village. From this time discovering in all europe and especialy in asia more and more same tipe villiges.)Satlled here and helping vith violent terror (like Germans last time) force agricultural people working for him.

Like Magyars 100 years earlier caling Slavs " talking cattle" . Nowadays we tend to think about slavery only in relation with African people in America. But Slavs were slaves much more earlier - actually they gave name to slavery in ancient times! (sieloyan (farmer) -> slavyan, slav -> lat. sclavus -> slave.)

About existence this people archeological findins talking nothing. In old books is writing only about power people-Sumers, Akkadians , Egyptians, Greeks, Skitas, Cimerians. Even Herodotos writing about diferent "Skitas"tribes- farmers who working in ground , and fightins warriors. Very slowly some people in archeology go to the thru. Warriors nomads people NEVER working like farmers ! Like say todays historicians . Never building zikurats or piramids ! Nomad hate this people, hate his sistem of live , hate his knowligde about nature- its tabu (see greeks epos about Prometheus), but use his work- its heaven in earth.
If you see in open eyes ,this cultural etik live in Big "warriors " countries to this days and was introduce to whoole world. You are pride if you are politic, biznisman vith political or somwhere soldier power too , profesional soldier, profesional hunter, sportsman... Nobody was pride if you are farmer, plumber, and milion other jobs. Sorry for this outtopic , but we are here talking al time very close about history.

In oficial history Slavs live somvhere in central rusiia or little north vith no history (!) and about 500 go to the central Europe. Very funny. Who you mean working in early China ? Nomads ? How you can feed all big armies from mongolia cros Mezopotamia to Greece ? Who building all big fenomenal buildings ? Nomads ? But history talking only about warrior nomad country and people. And why i talking only about Slavs like representative agrycultural people ?

Language. Verb. Farmers folklor in whole world. And so many blond , or red hair Vikings , Britains ,or Germans vith blue eyes

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:27 am

Dusan wrote:Jack mi English is so bad , than i cant starting complicated discusion about history .(or about anything more precise... )But in very short version. I dont know what about mean Gleb but for me - Slavs live in all asia much more later then we can imagine. This is somthing absurd to todays historicians and archeologists but... You know. History write vinners. Isnt it ?

Late Kingdoms have name of his kings and his honor people are his tribe soldiers, who do you mean work from him all food, armour, art things from gold to bronze or iron, konstruct his palaces and etc. You believ that his soldiers ? Or prisoner of war-another warriors ? All big kingdoms in history starting from the same scenario- no so big ,but very agresive nomad warrior tribe or tribes ataccking territory where live agricultural no fighting people ( about 80 years archeology talking about- first time when find in Switzerland lake farmer culture village. From this time discovering in all europe and especialy in asia more and more same tipe villiges.)Satlled here and helping vith violent terror (like Germans last time) force agricultural people working for him.

About existence this people archeological findins talking nothing. In old books is writing only about power people-Sumers, Akkadians , Egyptians, Greeks, Skitas, Cimerians. Even Herodotos writing about diferent "Skitas"tribes- farmers who working in ground , and fightins warriors. Very slowly some people in archeology go to the thru. Warriors nomads people NEVER working like farmers ! Like say todays historicians . Never building zikurats or piramids ! Nomad hate this people, hate his sistem of live , hate his knowligde about nature- its tabu (see greeks epos about Prometheus), but use his work- its heaven in earth.
If you see in open eyes ,this cultural etik live in Big "warriors " countries to this days and was introduce to whoole world. You are pride if you are politic, biznisman vith political or somwhere soldier power too , profesional soldier, profesional hunter, sportsman... Nobody was pride if you are farmer, plumber, and milion other jobs. Sorry for this outtopic , but we are here talking al time very close about history.

In oficial history Slavs live somvhere in central rusiia or little north vith no history (!) and about 500 go to the central Europe. Very funny. Who you mean working in late China ? Nomads ? How you can feed all big armies from mongolia cros Mezopotamia to Greece ? Who building all big fenomenal buildings ? Nomads ? But history talking only about warrior nomad country and people. And why i talking only about Slavs like representative agrycultural people ?

Language. Verb. Farmers folklor in whole world. And so many blond , or red hair Vikings , Britains ,or Germans vith blue eyes

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:15 am

Dusan,
I don't understand what you are saying. There are many confusions between languages. In Greek, ΣΚΥΘΟΣ, was pronounced as SKUTHOS. In transmission through Latin and French, it turned into Scythian. Because Russian Cyrillic pronounced "Θ" as " F", we have Skif. Skita happens when "th" becomes "t".

This means we have many different ways of writing the same thing. I think that you are expressing yourself well but because of the ways the words change spelling, I am getting confused.

Do you mean that because of the difference in attitude of nomads to civilisations, we cannot understand their perception of the people they encountered? The academics are mixed up because their views are civilised compared to those of nomads? Or have I missed the point?