Polovets stone statues

Gleb · Post by **Gleb** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:47 pm

Jack,
I was talking about Middle Ages steppes, so could not get the point why you are mentioned Scythians and Cimmerians. Please advice me on the case.

By the way; during Stalin era (in autumn 1943- autumn 1944, immediately after the region was free from German troops) only four Turkic people was moved – Karachai, Balkar, Cream-Tartar and Turk-Meskhetin. I do not want to open politics either but the manner of their move was quite different from the Ancient and Middle Ages ones.

I would name the three great branches of Asian steppes as Iranian, Turk and Mongolian, because nobody knows the Huns language, Scythians seems to be spoken Iranian, and Mongolian languages was spoken by the most peoples who set afire the neighboring countries in 13-17 centuries AD.

What about the semantics concerning the Polovets’ sculptures (and even the whole phenomenon of steppes’ statues) – there are still too many uncertain moments. At one point the most ancient sculptures (in Altai, Tuva and so on) were set up in honor of a fellow tribesman who killed many enemies (one enemy – one stone). So for the these early Stella there is one main point existing: that the simple standing stones represents the killed enemy warriors, and the human figure represents the hero himself. The cult of ancestors is a common feature for all Turkic peoples. The living tribesmen honor their heroes during ceremonial feast where the ancestors take ceremonial part. That’s why they hold a bowl in their hand. The swords and warrior’s decorated belts (a feature that was really popular in 6-10 centuries AD) denoting their military status.
The more later Polovets’ sculptures represents the further developments of the tradition: the statue represents not only the fallen hero (or famous warrior) but the ancestor in more common sense. From that point we find the explanation for many female figures among Polovets’ sculptures (some researches propose the sameness of female sculptures and Turkic goodness Umai). The worships for all sculptures are mentioned by many contemporary writers (Nizami, Roubruk).

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:53 pm

Bede, maybe i am lttle out of topic an litle" hot" , but this theme about farmers vs nomads -hunter/salvage people was in last fue days very intensive in mi discusion vith mi friends , and i was shot this in this forum.
Anyway i mean its very interesting , mostly for you guys from anglosas world.

Its not only about Skitas, this teori go more earlier to 15 -20 000 bc.

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:38 am

Gleb; My point about the Cimmerians and the Scythians is that history repeats itself. My point about 20th century history is based on a friendship I have with a man whose family, village and more were moved to Central Asia, so history repeated itself.

Dusan; concerning a supposed rift between nomads and settled populations there has been much written. From this point the focus is now on how much these types relied on eachother. I have to point out that in my area of interest, Central Asia, the agriculturists were equally armed as the nomads.

For myself i do not glorify war or warfare. I just like the bows and arrows.

I can understand you quite well and appreciate your's and Gleb's contributions. -j-

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:39 am

Jack i love bows and arrows too - especialy composites

. You remember Kurosawas famous film 7 samurays ? This is essencial farmers live.

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:31 pm

Some stones figure show more then drink vase...

Zoran Pavlovic · Post by **Zoran Pavlovic** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:44 pm

Dusan wrote:

Like Magyars 100 years earlier caling Slavs " talking cattle" . Nowadays we tend to think about slavery only in relation with African people in America. But Slavs were slaves much more earlier - actually they gave name to slavery in ancient times! (sieloyan (farmer) -> slavyan, slav -> lat. sclavus -> slave.)

This is one of most repeated non-sense about name Slavs.
Peoples of Slavic speaking languages call themselves Sloveni/Slaveni/Slavyani not because someone considered them as slaves/sclavus but because they considered themselves as those ones which speak- sloviti is ancient Slavic word and in most Slavic languages means to speak , to be understable or slaviti means to glorify, to celbrate. Slavs wanted to draw a distinction with ancient neighbours Germans which weren't understable for them and then the name Nemci/Nemac in Slavic languages, which means mute, silent, non-understable, for Germans which is not offensive. Why should had we called ourselves slaves? Even Ottoman conquerors never called Slavic peoples K?leler.
Byzantine chronnicles never mentioned Slavs as sclavus but Sclavinii ,derived from term Sloveni and their settlements as Sclaviniae. As i call myself Srbin and never Serb, Servien, Le Serb as it is in English,Dutch or French spelling or you call yourself Slovak which is derived from sloviti.
These teories about slaves and ''talking cattle'' are expansionistic teories of Austro-Hungarian politic at the end of XIX and beg.XXth c as ''civilizatory mission'' tent to justify conquests of new colonies in Africa...........
Dusan,Sorry 'cause i am out of topic[/quote]

But since this is site about traditional archery research back to topic.
I noticed something very interesting at these statues. Position, quivers and bowcases design reminds me at some designs which appear on Serbian mural painting and also some of quivers looks like that one who appears in Psalter from XIV century called Serbische Psalter which could prove Cuman influence.
This interesting miniature shows mounted archer drawing the arrow till the chest, possibly thumbring technique. This is only depicted proof about horse archery in balkan medieval countries such as Bulgaria or Serbia beside St.Demetrios in Markov monastery in North Macedonia. The way that archer rides looks like byzantine style to me. Maybe new topic about it should be open.
I scanned it from the Arms and armour of the Crusading Era, Islam,Eastern Europe and Asia.
Note: they referred it as Bulgarian psalter though in Bayerische staatbibliothek ''Serbische psalter'' is under cod.4 Slav as i know.I can't find original miniature. If someone has some information about this miniature let us know.