Interesting Asiatic Bows in Russian Collections

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:26 am

Dusan wrote:New portion of russians museums. I starting vith very interesting thing -looks like NEW version of old thumbrings !

[URL=http://img.enter4u.eu/Sargatskakulturan ... skwpkv.jpg][img]

One side of a belt buckle: not a thumb ring, I think.

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:31 am

I am not author , Stephen. I am only post man .

But looks like posibli version interestin too...

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:55 am

I agree with Stephen. It maybe one half of a buckle set. Comments on another thread about archaeologists and archery may be relevant here. Sometimes people should really discuss their ideas with someone in the field they are talking about. The pressure to publish sometimes forces people to publish before they can research all their ideas.

Hyarmendacil · Post by **Hyarmendacil** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:15 am

Dusan wrote: reconstruction old turkish horse haevy armour. Vith this big armour can horse only trot.Tail near the horse mouth is mostly against agresive fly.

Why, really? All the information I've read about trotting cataphracts--which, if anything, had heavier horse-armor than this--generally said that the horses trotted not because hey couldn't manage a canter or a gallop, but rather because they were deliberately restrained to the trot for the sake of maintaining the formation.

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:38 am

dont kill messenger

this was in original text.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:09 pm

Dusan,
Sometimes we cannot tell your opinion from what you are quoting. Please do not be offended.

Sometimes people make assumptions about what horses can do based on theory rather than practice. Horses are very strong and different breeds have different levels of endurance. Trotting, as defined in English, was not a gait used by horses in the East. European writers often got confused about these details because they had lost contact with the vocabulary of horse riding. Hungarian writers comment that the major gait used in the east and among horse nomads were the walk, the canter and the gallop. There are descriptions of the pace and the amble, but they are rarer.

Nineteenth century cavalry often used the trot to start a charge so that they could co-ordinate all the troops and keep the lines even.

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:28 pm

Thats ok Bede. I only hope that all on this forum understand , that comments on this pics are not mi opinion , but original texts from russians sites.
There are many more very interesting , but very controversial themes(for example , about mongol horse running discusion in russians historical sites , that this horse cant galop(vithout armour) , and call him "walking horse" ???), but i dont want to do this - because mi english.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:35 am

Dusan,
Even English authors are arguing about the efficiency on Mongol horses. There is a very interesting article of the battle of Ain Jalut between the Mongols and the Mamelukes which doubts the ability of the horses to do what the histories describe. Like other academic studies, these articles can be the first step in understanding the problem. Someone says something, other people point out what has been missed and new ideas are tested and expanded.

However, there is little point in arguments that descend into insult and declaration (like "It's true because I say so."). Facts are what we need. Armour on horses is a good example. There is a nineteenth century book on cavalry that points out that a horse has more trouble carrying weight in a pack saddle than the same weight in the form of a rider bewcause the rider comes with the advantage of built in springs in his legs. Armour is distributed over the whole of the horse and is probably not equivalent ot a weight carried at a single point. Horses are not machines.

Hyarmendacil · Post by **Hyarmendacil** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:35 am

Dusan wrote:dont kill messenger this was in original text.

Sorry if I mistook it for your opinion, then. In any case, I'm still a bit surprised about the assertion because the (admittedly few) primary sources I've read never speak of armored horses being unable to trot; rather, they advise the riders to keep the horses from breaking into an outright gallop. The clearest sources for this kind of advice are (if I remember correctly) the Byzantine emperor Leon VI's Taktika--maybe also the earlier Sylloge Taktikon--and Nikephoros Phokas's Peri Paradrome Polemon (I hope I got the title right).

I still need to read quite a bit more about cataphracts further east (and north) than Persia, though.

What's the title of the Ain Jalut article, BTW? Maybe I'll go out and look for that one too.

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:10 am

Related to horses used in imperial Mongolian warfare, my personal view is that they are extinct. Modern Mongolian steppe ponies are definitely not what was used. There may be a minor remnant in the Cheju ponies; but they have also reverted.

Interestingly, Chinese traditional animal medicine records that large horses for warfare can only be bred in the presence of a certain type of herb, believed to grow from where the semen of a stag fell to the ground. While the Mongols would provide horses to the Chinese court in tribute, they never let anyone get their hands on the 'magic herb'.

Sorry: a bit off-topic. But a nice story.

S

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:04 pm

Beatifull skitas pektoral in details

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:15 pm

In Odesa numizmatic museum i found interesting(maybe only for me ?) information that Skitas was not only extra archery people , but have arrows like first money !

kerkinitida 600 bc

borisfenida-700-500 bc

borisfenida 700-500bc

not only arrows was use.Animal body too- dolphin Olfia

Olfia in 300 bc has todays wellknown disain

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:55 pm

Some Skitas warrior armour . Volkovetskij kurgan

gold fragments from Semibratskij kurgan

Shoulder parts of armour, Nimfe

Samibratnij rekonstruction

Some horse bridle and other bands

Alam ed Din, Adnan · Post by **Alam ed Din, Adnan** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:32 pm

Hi Dusan

http://img.enter4u.eu/vystrojmongolskehovojakatdhi.gif
In which context did this figure appear? Dzungarian (Oirat), Tibetan? Do you remember? It looks similar to the helmets they used in shooting this video for a song by Vladimir Karuyev:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSDlkXi09Ec

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:26 am

Alam , description of this pic is : Mongolian soldier equipment .