The bow- finding of olon kurin gol

redhawk · Post by **redhawk** » Sun May 03, 2009 10:13 am

Reto, why such a cynical reply?

The project is finished, that?s it! You really missed my statement, I go on by myself.
Maybe you?ve missed the chronos too, just open your eyes.
The stronger version will be ready soon, final tillering has to be done, I?ll update the forum.

Michael

Reto · Post by **Reto** » Sun May 03, 2009 6:02 pm

Reference:
I?m not satisfied with the results. From my point of view more questions have arised than answers have been found.
But there is the ATARNET with some guys crazy enough for to go on

Hi Michael

no cynical reply - the puzzle is not so easy

I am simply interested in the result as probably many others are.

We are aware some of the bows cracked while making or testing and you continue yourself. But since the project/sponsorship got stopped and the publication,s will be soon, I would like to know whether they include pictures, comments and test,s referring to the broken bows(?) and since you are making another bow that conclusion can not be drawn correctly yet, or exclude the publication,s this part about the Scythian bow-making and refer to nice pictures/fakes and we need to continue in ATARN or other forums? - Got it?

Best regards
Reto

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Sun May 03, 2009 7:34 pm

Archaeology is by nature always an incomplete science based upon circumstantial evidence. Archaeology evidence is found by accident. Assumptions are made which change over time. We have chosen this area of interest and we accept these limitations. This is what we have.

Michael. I think that Reto is just expressing frustration at the slow pace of the process but I honor your saying that you do not have all the answers.

We are talking about a craft which existed thousands of years ago. Keep up the good work all.

I have concluded that there is a big difference between a Scythian Kurgan burial and a burial of a common warrior. I always think of the Native Americans and how similar tribes appear to some and how different they were to each other. The Russians dug thousands of Kurgans without finding bows and Stephen witnesses a place where every man is buried with one.

redhawk · Post by **redhawk** » Tue May 19, 2009 2:12 pm

I finally succeded in making a stronger version of the bow- fnding of olon kurin gol. Getting better with experience.
According to the measurements posted above this reconstruction draws 41lbs at 24", speed is 142f/s, 320grs. arrow, the bow will finally be drawn till 26".
Stronger versions should be no problem now, this bow is a reliable weapon matching the needs of a Scythian hunter or warrior.
According to my knowledge this bow is the first reconstruction of a Scythian bow matching the construction- principles and measurements of Scythian bow- findings.

Some notes: During the past 4 years I?ve done a lot of reconstructions of Scythian, Greek and Parthian bows, reconstructions of Egyptian split-limbs will follow upcoming fall.
This spring I made some selfbows according to nowadays bow- designs principles based on the experiences of Tim Baker, Steve Gardner, Marc St. Louis and others.
These "modern" selfbows perform as well or better as horn- bows. A good bowyer could make a clever designed selfbow of well choosen wood in one day.
My conclusion is now, that hornbows or otherwise somehow delicious made bows of the past are a product of straight organised societies or dictatorships. The selfbow is much more a weapon of "open societies".
I conclude in posting that it is worthless to state that a certain kind of bow is better than another kind of bow. Any ranking of a historical bow could not be done without keeping in mimd its backgrounds(society, military tactics......).
Nowadays we should enjoy the luxurious situation of the world wide web to get a historical overview of almost every kind of bow.

Recently surfing the topics discussed in the ATARNET, I recognized that there is a lot of theory, whereas the number of really crafted bows is falling. I miss pics of bows strung, drawn, chronos................(like Adam, Redhorse, Andrew, Francesco, myself do it.......sorry if I?ve forget someone of you to mention)
We need more infos based on practical experiences here, otherwise we are producing to much hot air.

One could get the impression we are discussing much more some super- ugly plastics fakes than real Asian historical bows. What means ATARN?

Sorry, I can?t post pics of the unstrung and drawn bow, cause I ?ve reached some max. upload size?
Michael

redhawk · Post by **redhawk** » Tue May 19, 2009 2:17 pm

More pics?

Stephen, what?s to do?

Michael

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Tue May 19, 2009 3:54 pm

For same problems i use free image hosting. Use him too. Your bow looks interesting. You glued piesces of wood and horn like original or glued like modern flatbow vith triangular shape layer ?(modern glue or natural glue ?)

redhawk · Post by **redhawk** » Tue May 19, 2009 7:37 pm

Dusan, thanks for the hint about image hosting, I guess you mean photobucket I?ll do it as soon as possible.
This is not a hornbow, it is an all- wood lamination. Only the belly- side of the recurves are covered with horn-plates.
For complete details look at: www.redhawk-online.com/news
I would never do any bow with modern glues, the laminations are glued with fish- glue.

Michael

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Tue May 19, 2009 8:06 pm

I mean - you glued flat wood strips (like modern bows, or more thiny strips - like is visible in that old bow. I wil go to your site...

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Tue May 19, 2009 8:40 pm

Well i understand. You working vith your plan . 2 wood strips + sidewals. 4 wood strips in handle. How wood you use? Birch + ?

redhawk · Post by **redhawk** » Sat May 23, 2009 11:52 am

Dusan, I make this reconstruction with juniper and mountain- maple.
Original wood is still not analyzed.

Michael[/url]

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Sat May 23, 2009 10:07 pm

Yes, good choice. What you thing about birch ? Most siberian and mongol area bows are from birch. Now i work in two bows from birch, but litlle afraid if our central European birch wood is the same quality , like siberian ... Or better says todays wood like many of wood specialist mean- is not same quality, like 1000 yars oldest woods

redhawk · Post by **redhawk** » Fri May 29, 2009 9:13 am

Thanks ATARNO for making more pics possible.

Here is the bow unstrung, drawn (25") and a detail of the limb, see the sidewalls..............

Dusan, I guess birch could not withstand the tension and compression strength?of such a short bow. But I admit not to know all the very different species of Siberian birch.

By the way: for all of you are doing reconstructions, please post your bows unstrung, strung and drawn. Chronos would also be very helpful.

Michael

redhawk · Post by **redhawk** » Fri May 29, 2009 9:22 am

....the recurve with horn- covered belly including groove for the string

Michael

Reto · Post by **Reto** » Fri May 29, 2009 10:04 am

Hi Michael

I impressed. Good to see finally an excellent replica of a Scyhtian bow. From a design point of view I still like the bow from Novotny, but now we all know it is a very nice hybrid, not to call it fake.

Following questions popped up: How about the finish and decoration. Based on the findings was their any evidence the bows were also highly decorated, first covered with leather or birch bark? Since the bodies of the people had many tattoo's were there any natural pigments visible?

When does the publication gets published, what's the name of the book and are their also some pictures and conclusion drawn about the making of the bow? If yes, who made the reconstruction of the bows?

Thanks a lot for your answers.
Reto

Thanks ATARNO for making more pics possible.

Here is the bow unstrung, drawn (25") and a detail of the limb, see the sidewalls..............

Dusan, I guess birch could not withstand the tension and compression strength?of such a short bow. But I admit not to know all the very different species of Siberian birch.

By the way: for all of you are doing reconstructions, please post your bows unstrung, strung and drawn. Chronos would also be very helpful.

Michael

redhawk · Post by **redhawk** » Fri May 29, 2009 10:19 am

Thanks Reto,

Novottny should not call his bow a Scythian bow.........that?s all

Only evidence of birch- bark, maybe I?ll have to cover the bow with birch- bark when the final tests are done. There are tracks of pigments in the kurgan, but I don?t think that such a bow was heavily decorated or adorned.

There will be a publication of the German Archaeological Institute, I don?t know the deadline, I?ll update you.

Michael

The bow- finding of olon kurin gol

a stronger version of the olon kurin gol bow...............

more pics..................

another pic.........