i has know some affect the cult(theology) take more affect to archer in Asia, the chinese,the korean the japan,
for the chinese and korean ,main isthe Confucianism, the archer teacher often show some faith to a new archer,such as 仁(humanitas)义(justice)
礼(politeness)智(wisdom)信(trustworthy)
my question, at turkish and Persia, main is Islamic? i has try find some history of turkish, but only a few has got, it is multiple cult(theology) and civilisation syzygium, maybe at history the turkish/persia and chinese are neighbour our chinese called them are 突厥（turk)？
perhaps, there archer can be find at Koran, military book such as chinese 武经总要和武备志，
The influence of Islam on Persian and Turkish archery
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jiao
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The influence of Islam on Persian and Turkish archery
Last edited by jiao on Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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jiao
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for know the Islamic, this site is a good start
http://www.islamicfinder.org/
i am not know what he sound,but real a sorrily music
http://www.islamicfinder.org/athan/makkah.wav
http://www.islamicfinder.org/
i am not know what he sound,but real a sorrily music
http://www.islamicfinder.org/athan/makkah.wav
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Bede
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Jiao,
In Turkey, the archers' guild was associated with a Sufi order. There were religous ceremonies related to how you progressed in your studies of archery. There were also prohibitions against using your bow illegally or without care.
They said that you should never give up archery once you learnt it, even if you only drew the bow occasionally when you no longer could go and shoot.
There is some information in Turkish Archery and the Composite Bow by Paul Klopsteg in English.
In Turkey, the archers' guild was associated with a Sufi order. There were religous ceremonies related to how you progressed in your studies of archery. There were also prohibitions against using your bow illegally or without care.
They said that you should never give up archery once you learnt it, even if you only drew the bow occasionally when you no longer could go and shoot.
There is some information in Turkish Archery and the Composite Bow by Paul Klopsteg in English.
Bede
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jiao
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Murat ?zveri
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Hi Jiao,
As Bede says Turkish traditional archery was strongly related to Islamic mysticism.
The orthodox Islam promotes archery too. There is one verse in the holly book Qur'an about being prepared for war. It's about "feeding horses and having pre-prapaired force". The Prophet Mohammad himself interpreted this "force" as "using bow and arrow".
Other than this verse the Prophet had many words in terms of promoting archery practice. Some of them are about being awarded with Heaven after the death if not only practiced archery but also help to archery-practicing people, like bringing the shot arrows back from the target butt. He also mentioned that it's like a sin to give up archery if one once begin to practice it. The Prophet also said that practising archery is better than and must be preferred to "nafile" praying (which is the excessive praying additional to what was ordered).
Remember that Islam -like some other big religions- was a political movement too and needed an active and effective army. The bow and arrow has always been one of the most effective weapon combination of old times and it makes sense to make more and more people master in archery.
In Turkish archery it's a little different. The Anatolian mystic schools were seriously influenced by the Asiatic life style, including Shamanism. So it's not very surprising that the early dervishes were very unconventional-looking and weird-behaving people. Their philosophy and many practices were different than that of orthodox Islam. I believe that high technical skill in all martial arts is a matter of mental attitude/state which can be achieved by some mystic practices (meditation etc.).
Additional to this, the mystic moral values must have balanced the warriors "thirst for blood". This balance was necessary to control people who were programmed to kill and had otherwise no possibility to live within the society. I think it was always aimed and rarely achieved. For example samurai had its Bushido, medieval esoteric knight orders had their own moral values. It's known that these pragmatic men only wanted to survive the battles. Moral values come second.
In this forum, under the topic "Some questions for Bede (and other interested)" you can find some other info about early mystic involement in Anatolia.
Regards.
Murat
As Bede says Turkish traditional archery was strongly related to Islamic mysticism.
The orthodox Islam promotes archery too. There is one verse in the holly book Qur'an about being prepared for war. It's about "feeding horses and having pre-prapaired force". The Prophet Mohammad himself interpreted this "force" as "using bow and arrow".
Other than this verse the Prophet had many words in terms of promoting archery practice. Some of them are about being awarded with Heaven after the death if not only practiced archery but also help to archery-practicing people, like bringing the shot arrows back from the target butt. He also mentioned that it's like a sin to give up archery if one once begin to practice it. The Prophet also said that practising archery is better than and must be preferred to "nafile" praying (which is the excessive praying additional to what was ordered).
Remember that Islam -like some other big religions- was a political movement too and needed an active and effective army. The bow and arrow has always been one of the most effective weapon combination of old times and it makes sense to make more and more people master in archery.
In Turkish archery it's a little different. The Anatolian mystic schools were seriously influenced by the Asiatic life style, including Shamanism. So it's not very surprising that the early dervishes were very unconventional-looking and weird-behaving people. Their philosophy and many practices were different than that of orthodox Islam. I believe that high technical skill in all martial arts is a matter of mental attitude/state which can be achieved by some mystic practices (meditation etc.).
Additional to this, the mystic moral values must have balanced the warriors "thirst for blood". This balance was necessary to control people who were programmed to kill and had otherwise no possibility to live within the society. I think it was always aimed and rarely achieved. For example samurai had its Bushido, medieval esoteric knight orders had their own moral values. It's known that these pragmatic men only wanted to survive the battles. Moral values come second.
In this forum, under the topic "Some questions for Bede (and other interested)" you can find some other info about early mystic involement in Anatolia.
Regards.
Murat
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Gianrico
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[quote="Murat ?zveri"]Hi Jiao,
samurai had its Bushido, medieval esoteric knight orders had their own moral values. It's known that these pragmatic men only wanted to survive the battles. Moral values come second.
Hello Murat,
I think this is a modern (pragmatic) vision and historical reality was slightly different. Moral values had their importance for people tha wanted to be prepared to dead in battle: these values was a sort of insurance for developing the right martial quality. But it's also true what we read in Hagakure, i. e. that the proposed models was very difficult to realize, due to limitations of nature and personality of each one.
We can easily admit, almost for some esoterical circles, that they was not just interested in "survival" techniques. I suppose it wasn't the same for the common soldier...
Best regards
Gianrico
samurai had its Bushido, medieval esoteric knight orders had their own moral values. It's known that these pragmatic men only wanted to survive the battles. Moral values come second.
Hello Murat,
I think this is a modern (pragmatic) vision and historical reality was slightly different. Moral values had their importance for people tha wanted to be prepared to dead in battle: these values was a sort of insurance for developing the right martial quality. But it's also true what we read in Hagakure, i. e. that the proposed models was very difficult to realize, due to limitations of nature and personality of each one.
We can easily admit, almost for some esoterical circles, that they was not just interested in "survival" techniques. I suppose it wasn't the same for the common soldier...
Best regards
Gianrico
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Murat ?zveri
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Gianrio,
I did not mean "to stay alive whatever it takes" with "survival". The mystic practices additional to the (orthodox) religious/spiritual teachings about "life after death" or " reencarnation" certainly helped the ancient warrior to reach such a mental attitude that allowed him not only kill the enemy without mercy and hesitation but also made him fearless. In Islam for example, it's believed that the one who is killed while fighting in the name of God (Cihad) is awarded with Heaven. Many historians and war stratejists believe that the braveness and success of early Saracen armies were the result of their fanatism rather than their military perfection. There are many other examples too: The assasins of Hasan Sabbah, the Kamikaze warriors of WW II and even the terrorists who blow up themselves without hesitation.
On the other hand, no system requires an army (or a warrior type) that "prefer" to be killed rather than destroying the enemy. Remember that an effective, proficient (and in some cultures professsional as well) warrior is educated in years. No king or government would have accepted their forces to be wasted so easily after it took so much time and effort to have it.
One of the most important basic istincts of man would help here: saving its own life! What I believe is that the ancient stratejists found out a good way to create the nearly perfect warrior by compromising the basic instincts and the acquired spiritual values.
Non of us can know exactly what the men on the battle field were thinking. But I believe that the professional warriors have used (or say "abused") these spiritual concepts in their favour. They somehow realised that their success rate in "killing" and "surviving" got higher when they're ready for dead. For achieving their goal they were mentally programed theirselves not to achieve it. This paradox is understandable if the non-dualist, paradoxical elements in Asian/Eastern culture is understood. I'm not a Kyodo practitioner, but as far as I can get, there is a similar approach in shooting an arrow and hitting the target. The Kyudoka mustn't have any thoughts and feelings to interact the technique, including the wish to hit the target.
I believe, that the ancient warriors' final goal was to survive anyway.
M.
I did not mean "to stay alive whatever it takes" with "survival". The mystic practices additional to the (orthodox) religious/spiritual teachings about "life after death" or " reencarnation" certainly helped the ancient warrior to reach such a mental attitude that allowed him not only kill the enemy without mercy and hesitation but also made him fearless. In Islam for example, it's believed that the one who is killed while fighting in the name of God (Cihad) is awarded with Heaven. Many historians and war stratejists believe that the braveness and success of early Saracen armies were the result of their fanatism rather than their military perfection. There are many other examples too: The assasins of Hasan Sabbah, the Kamikaze warriors of WW II and even the terrorists who blow up themselves without hesitation.
On the other hand, no system requires an army (or a warrior type) that "prefer" to be killed rather than destroying the enemy. Remember that an effective, proficient (and in some cultures professsional as well) warrior is educated in years. No king or government would have accepted their forces to be wasted so easily after it took so much time and effort to have it.
One of the most important basic istincts of man would help here: saving its own life! What I believe is that the ancient stratejists found out a good way to create the nearly perfect warrior by compromising the basic instincts and the acquired spiritual values.
Non of us can know exactly what the men on the battle field were thinking. But I believe that the professional warriors have used (or say "abused") these spiritual concepts in their favour. They somehow realised that their success rate in "killing" and "surviving" got higher when they're ready for dead. For achieving their goal they were mentally programed theirselves not to achieve it. This paradox is understandable if the non-dualist, paradoxical elements in Asian/Eastern culture is understood. I'm not a Kyodo practitioner, but as far as I can get, there is a similar approach in shooting an arrow and hitting the target. The Kyudoka mustn't have any thoughts and feelings to interact the technique, including the wish to hit the target.
I believe, that the ancient warriors' final goal was to survive anyway.
M.
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Gianrico
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Hagakure
Hello Murat,
We have some text which helps us to better understand the mind of an ancient warrior. Hagakure is one of these texts. I let the author speak for me, and let also Stephen decide if this is the right place for debate this aspects of ancient martial arts.
More of Hagakure on:
http://users.tkk.fi/~renko/hag1.html
"Although it stands to reason that a samurai should be mindful of the Way of the Samurai, it would seem that we are all negligent. Consequently, if someone were to ask, "What is the true meaning of the Way of the Samurai?" the person who would be able to answer promptly is rare. This is because it has not been established in one's mind beforehand. From this, one's unmindfulness of the Way can be known.
Negligence is an extreme thing.
The Way of the Samurai is found in death. When it comes to either/or, there is only the quick choice of death. It is not particularly difficult. Be determined and advance. To say that dying without reaching one's aim is to die a dog's death is the frivolous way of sophisticates. When pressed with the choice of life or death, it is not necessary to gain one's aim.
We all want to live. And in large part we make our logic according to what we like. But not having attained our aim and continuing to live is cowardice. This is a thin dangerous line. To die without gaming one's aim is a dog's death and fanaticism. But there is no shame in this. This is the substance of the Way of the Samurai. If by setting one's heart right every morning and evening, one is able to live as though his body were already dead, he pains freedom in the Way. His whole life will be without blame, and he will succeed in his calling."
Best regards
Gianrico
We have some text which helps us to better understand the mind of an ancient warrior. Hagakure is one of these texts. I let the author speak for me, and let also Stephen decide if this is the right place for debate this aspects of ancient martial arts.
More of Hagakure on:
http://users.tkk.fi/~renko/hag1.html
"Although it stands to reason that a samurai should be mindful of the Way of the Samurai, it would seem that we are all negligent. Consequently, if someone were to ask, "What is the true meaning of the Way of the Samurai?" the person who would be able to answer promptly is rare. This is because it has not been established in one's mind beforehand. From this, one's unmindfulness of the Way can be known.
Negligence is an extreme thing.
The Way of the Samurai is found in death. When it comes to either/or, there is only the quick choice of death. It is not particularly difficult. Be determined and advance. To say that dying without reaching one's aim is to die a dog's death is the frivolous way of sophisticates. When pressed with the choice of life or death, it is not necessary to gain one's aim.
We all want to live. And in large part we make our logic according to what we like. But not having attained our aim and continuing to live is cowardice. This is a thin dangerous line. To die without gaming one's aim is a dog's death and fanaticism. But there is no shame in this. This is the substance of the Way of the Samurai. If by setting one's heart right every morning and evening, one is able to live as though his body were already dead, he pains freedom in the Way. His whole life will be without blame, and he will succeed in his calling."
Best regards
Gianrico
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Russ Mitchell
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Gianrico
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Hello Russ,
It is a fact that some behaviours, like ritual suicide, was very common in feodal Japan. At the time of the life of this author, practices like harakiri begin just to be prohibited, but they were daily practiced before, for a long time. In other points of the text the author itself recalls the topic of the "decadence" of the strength, virility, moral values etc.
Aniway, I think that interpretation of ancient codes is also a matter of personal "feeling". I would not consider, for exemple, modern terrorists in the same manner than ancient warriors, because I attach a high value to the ancient ways of thinking (and none to modern ideologies). But I easily conceive that someone with a different feeling could follow a different interpretation.
Best regards
Gianrico
It is a fact that some behaviours, like ritual suicide, was very common in feodal Japan. At the time of the life of this author, practices like harakiri begin just to be prohibited, but they were daily practiced before, for a long time. In other points of the text the author itself recalls the topic of the "decadence" of the strength, virility, moral values etc.
Aniway, I think that interpretation of ancient codes is also a matter of personal "feeling". I would not consider, for exemple, modern terrorists in the same manner than ancient warriors, because I attach a high value to the ancient ways of thinking (and none to modern ideologies). But I easily conceive that someone with a different feeling could follow a different interpretation.
Best regards
Gianrico
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Murat ?zveri
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Gianrico,
I don't want to be misunderstood about these modern terrorists as a Turkish citizen who has been suffering from terrorism for more than 10 years.
This a "tool and goal" quesion. One can commit a homicide or heal someone by using a scalpel for example. I agree with you about the noble identity and life style of ancient warrior. A scalpel in the hands of a murderer do not lessen the value of the surgeons.
Best regards.
Murat
I don't want to be misunderstood about these modern terrorists as a Turkish citizen who has been suffering from terrorism for more than 10 years.
This a "tool and goal" quesion. One can commit a homicide or heal someone by using a scalpel for example. I agree with you about the noble identity and life style of ancient warrior. A scalpel in the hands of a murderer do not lessen the value of the surgeons.
Best regards.
Murat
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Gianrico
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Alam ed Din, Adnan
- Posts: 179
- Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:12 pm
Jiao: I have this links for you where you can read on Arab archery.
You can tick with your mouse on each section to open the chapter:
[url] http://www.caama.ca/kitab2/seclistin.html
[url] http://www.caama.ca/kitab/clisting.html
Greetings & Salaam
You can tick with your mouse on each section to open the chapter:
[url] http://www.caama.ca/kitab2/seclistin.html
[url] http://www.caama.ca/kitab/clisting.html
Greetings & Salaam
Last edited by Alam ed Din, Adnan on Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Alam
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jiao
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at first , thanks useful reply, i am real has poor knowledge about it ,and i am difficultly read member's meaning.
the religion, cultural, military put a lot effort to archer and bowyer, such as some traditional pattern(design), on a chinese hornbow also a some Buddhism pattern,for me , the Islam cultural so far a way and so unfamiliar ,i am approvingly these Islam country is a cultural on earth same as Christianity and Buddhism ,
i am not know why some member take it linked contemporary terrorist
suicide bombings, also at that time these Christianity cross army attack to east(十字军东征）,when the religion obey and service to government , virtually it service for the money/interest group， i am not agree it!
we are do a research(study) here, keep the righteous,bonitas viewpoint and it not form hostility and animosity
the religion, cultural, military put a lot effort to archer and bowyer, such as some traditional pattern(design), on a chinese hornbow also a some Buddhism pattern,for me , the Islam cultural so far a way and so unfamiliar ,i am approvingly these Islam country is a cultural on earth same as Christianity and Buddhism ,
i am not know why some member take it linked contemporary terrorist
suicide bombings, also at that time these Christianity cross army attack to east(十字军东征）,when the religion obey and service to government , virtually it service for the money/interest group， i am not agree it!
we are do a research(study) here, keep the righteous,bonitas viewpoint and it not form hostility and animosity
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jiao
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- Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 1:24 pm
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i am find the word knight , is turkish also has a lot skill how use the sword and others weapon best same as chinese wushu? also these knight need breath and close eyes( sit down) think training
for the chinese knght, main they are help the weak and killed who depend his power do a bully, war for the disinterested, not only for the government
for the chinese knght, main they are help the weak and killed who depend his power do a bully, war for the disinterested, not only for the government