Tatar / Bashkir

[jack farrell]

I would say to make just one arrow and see how it does. Modify it to improve it or remake it till it is ideal, It would be hard to believe that Tartars made just one kind of arrow.

Barreling is more pronounced than 1/32". Remember that the nock is large, like the middle of the arrow. You can also place the bulge (I think in Turkic this is the pot belly) in the center or forward of center.

I saw arrows in Central Asia and in Austrian museums that were equal to what we call "Fir" wood. The Mongol arrows in the HMNS appear to be hardwood.

Do you have access to a table saw? Rip a square strip, make to a hex and shape with a thumb plane, a simple tool. Make sure the grain is perfectly aligned to the strip.

[Bede]

There are several different qualities of Crimean Tatar arrows just as there are of bows. Some bows were undoubtedly made in the Crimea and the surrounding areas up into the Caucasus Mountains. However, high grade Crimean Tatar bows were made in Istanbul for Tatar clients. The arrows in the Grayson Collection were probably made in Ottoman Turkey for Tatar clients though they could have been made in one of the Crimean towns. The arrows are barrelled in the same proportion as Ottoman war arrows. They are more barrelled than the Tatar arrows in the Karlsruhe Landesmuseum. They probably have bakkam nocks under the painting. I have examined closely several times and they have retained their straightness. The Karlsruhe arrows have self nocks and are described as Kieferholz (pine). They are 85 cm long.

The nocks have larger openings on the Karlsruhe arrows suggesting thicker strings. The Grayson arrows were for a slightly smaller string diameter.

Incidentally, Dr Grayson told me the fletching on the Grayson arrows are replacements. The fletcher told me that they were based on a description in Arab Archery, but he believes now that this is incorrect. Arrows shown in Stara Bron w polskich zbiorach by Zdzislaw Zygulski appear to have their original feathers. In illustration 228 on page 222, these arrows are described as being 66-78 cm. Obviously the shorter ones are probably Turkish arrows mixed up in the Tatar quiver. The fletching is long and low in the larger arrows. The arrows are shown in the quiver so they may be broken or missing their heads so I would not rely on the lengths.

[Adam Karpowicz]

Bede

You say "high grade Tatar bows were made in Istanbul". Do you have references to that other than the 1709 Janissary shop? If you base this opinion on the findings from the Janissary estate, we actually do not even know exactly what kind of bows were made there (although described as Tatar) and what was the quality of manufacture. I am not arguing this is impossible, and surely such bows were made in Turkey too, but I would be happier with a reference.

There are reports of Tatars importing bows made in Crimea for the Ottoman army, together with the slaves. So, the traffic in bows was perhaps (mainly) in the opposite direction. It again does not mean the bows were typical Crim-Tatar.

As to the arrow length. I have measured a good number of bows in the Polish collections and generally the bows, of the typical Tatar shape, were shorter than one would find elsewhere. Perhaps the arrows were also shorter to match the bows.

Adam

[Csikos Balint]

Where can I find dimensions for turkish war arrows?

[jack farrell]

Turkish arrows from about the time of the siege of Vienna or earlier. The wood is easily identified as coniferous "lumber" split from log sections. They are then shaped into a straight shape therefore not requiring straightening. Arrows of this technique stay straighter in museum settings, generally. -j-

[Bede]

Adam,
There is an indisputably Crimean Tatar bow in the Grayson collection signed by an Ottoman bowyer (Hajji Mustafa Kavsi). There are many reports of trade other than slaves going between the Crimean Tatar state and the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman archives are very extensive and are now starting to be translated. There are Polish lithographs showing one of the Girei Khans and his attendants wearing Ottoman style quivers.

It would be surprising if the Crimean Tatar upper classes did not import luxury goods from the workshops in Istanbul. As well, there would be the diplomatic gifts of the Sultans. There is documentation currently available showing that even Christian princes subject to the Sultans bought quivers and archery equipment from the same workshops that supplied the palace.

I would be interested if the majority of arrows in Polish collections believed to be Tatar had parallel sided nocks. These I would guess are the native style. As to length, what is a long arrow for me might not be long to you. I have seen the other Tatar bow in the Grayson collection and it was much shorter than the Kavsi one. After your observations, I wonder which was the dominant form. Perhaps the large ones were for another style of shooting or for bigger individuals. If one considers that the majority of the Crim Tatars were the descendants of the Kipchaks, it is possible that there were two styles of bows in use. However it is just as likely that bow design was evolving and diversifying.

There is information from European sources that the average Tatar soldier of the 17th century was quite poor. Perhaps the Ottomans supported their allies with war materiel.

[Bashqort]

Adam,
It would be surprising if the Crimean Tatar upper classes did not import luxury goods from the workshops in Istanbul.

name of bow made from sinew and horn in bashkirian (language) is etherne.
it sounds like Ottoman's city Edirne (where famouse bow makers were from).
I have met some info on internet that among kazakhs than name was also used. (needs to be verified)

so it might be that ottoman's bows spreaded as far as bashkir and kazakhs.

[Bede]

One way to check is look up the word in the dictionary of pre-thirteenth century Turkish. If it is there, then it doesn't refer to Edirne because at that date the Turks had not conquered it. If it is not there, then there is a chance that the word is from the place which would be very interesting.

[Lord Ruthven]

Well, the byzantine name of the city is Adrianopolis. There are many examples of older christian ( either byzantine, bulgarian, serbian, etc. ) toponimes, which are not translated but kind of transliterated in to turkish after the conquest of the Balkans. Edirne is one such example.

So there is no possibility that the city is named after the word for hornbow. And I believe, there is little bossibility of the oposite, since in the late 14th c. the turkish langage is long since developed.

The only possibility of some connection between the two names I see is the following:
Some kind of import in bashkir region from Ottoman empire, and particularly from Edirne, which gave the name of the city to the hornbow of that particular type and later - to all hornbows.
That is something common in the Balkans at least, but is possible only if one of the two is fullfiled:
a) there were no bashkir hornbows before that particular import.
or
b) The bashkir hornbows were too different in overal shape or details from the ottoman.
If neither of this is fulfiled then the new word would not be used at all.

Well, that's my oppinion at least.

[Bashqort]

So there is no possibility that the city is named after the word for hornbow.

of course

Some kind of import in bashkir region from Ottoman empire, and particularly from Edirne, which gave the name of the city to the hornbow of that particular type and later - to all hornbows.

yes, but we cannot say that this name is general for all kind of hornbows.
We use also bow names as YEYE (the same with YAY in turkish) and YAN.
(yan might sound like Zhan in some bashkirian dialects

a) there were no bashkir hornbows before that particular import.
or
b) The bashkir hornbows were too different in overal shape or details from the ottoman.

bashkirs lived in contact with other turkic tribes and must have horn bow.
so (b) should be more correct.

[Stephen Selby]

A word of caution about the word 'Tatar'. It had two meanings.

One was derived from the Mongolic word for the confederation (what we now usually regard as the origin of the word 'Tartar'.) The other was a derogatory Turkic word referring to Muslims who abandoned their religion in the Crimean region because the Greek administrators gave tax concessions to Christians. The word that appears in Ottoman documents may mean 'tax-dodging apostates' rather than 'Mongolic Tartars'.

[Bashqort]

A word of caution about the word 'Tatar'. It had two meanings.

word tatar as tribe was known much earlier time....

5. Yogci sigitci ?ng re k?n togsikdaki B?kli c?l[l]?g il
Tabgac T?p?t Apar Purum Kirkiz ?c Kurikan Otuz Tatar
Kitany Tatabi bunca budun kelipen sigtamis, yoglamis.
Antag k?l?g kagan er[mis. Anda kisre inisi kagan bolmis
eri]nc. Ogliti kagan bolmis erinc. Anda [kisre inisi ecisin
teg]

[jack farrell]

I think I posted earlier in another topic that I sent a friend to the state museum in Kazakhstan. They have a number of Chinese made Qing style bows that they believe are Kazakh and Bashkir. This is how they are labeled. He also bought a book on the arms and armaments of the Kazakhs. The author seems to think that these Chinese bows are KZ and Bashkir. Evidently the local production of bows died so early in the country that none exists. But Chinese import bows continued for 100-200 years after this time. One or more bows has Chinese decorations/symbols on it. Jack

[Bashqort]

One or more bows has Chinese decorations/symbols on it. Jack

do you have pictures?
i have one and could post it later today.
from russian sources we know that bashkir made their own bows in 19 centure, they looked clumsy but bashkirs used them very well and had good shot. Also they export their bows to kazakhs.

As I know, materials in National Museum of Almaty came from old Karavansaray museum of Orenburg. (They were moved there after 1917 revolution). That chinese bows might be from Kalmyks.,
Bashkirs fought with Kalmyks a lot, and also we have muslim kalmyks among bashkirs, assimilated and became bashkir.

[Bashqort]

bashkir bow from almaty national museum (...)