Tatar / Bashkir

[Dusan]

Sorry , but this is chinese bow. Good example what Jack talking about Kazachstan and another stan too. I posted some pics from this muzeums too , an everyvhere is same situation.(Except this Jacs found tatar bow ...)

[jack farrell]

Yes, and note the Chinese made quiver, bow case and arrow. There is a Kazakh quiver and elsewhere some local made arrows. I also found an illustration of a Qing bow in an Indian museum in Pant's book Indian Archery. This all may show that Chinese bows were available or less expensive or performed better or more reliably than locally made products. -j-

[Stephen Selby]

This question of how Chinese (Manchu) bows permeated surrounding cultures could be very interesting. Apart from the descriptions in Central Asian museums and as far away as Poland and Topkapi, even Korean museums have labelled obvious 18-19 Century Chinese products as local.

I think much of the confusion will be recent. We all know how confused many but the most experienced museum staff are about bows and arrows. At the time the bows entered those countries, people were probably well-aware of their origin. Some could be gifts in return for foreign tributes to Beijing, some could be booty taken in wars between the Qing and the Dzungars in the 18-19th Century. Some might have been commercial products; but up to the 1880s the Qing court went to a lot of effort to prevent bows going into the course of commerce.

If they were commercial, they would probably have been relatively inexpensive. Chinese-made bows were made in a production line process with different specialists adding different components. So in terms of price and quality they would compare with the best products of indicidual artizan bowyers. In the 1950s, Mongolian archers went to Beijing for their bows rather than making them locally.

S

[jack farrell]

Of course by 1880 there was little use for a bow. This commerce probably preceded that time. For instance in India the Brits put an end to bow making in 1857 and before.

There is another underlying issue. Why, say in Kazakhstan, a place with thousands of years of nomad history, did the Kazakhs stop their own bow making while there was still a market for hornbows?

[Bashqort]

Why, say in Kazakhstan, a place with thousands of years of nomad history, did the Kazakhs stop their own bow making while there was still a market for hornbows?

due to economic and political situation in steppes may be??
for instance, among bashkirs smithy was forbidden by russian goverment on 11 February 1735, about 800 smiths were taken away out of Bashkortostan, at that war russian commanders complained that among bashkirs a lot of well equipent warriors with armour (cuirass) and chain armor, but on war 1772-1774 a very few bashkirs had armor and sabres, mostly they were equipped with bows only...

[Bashqort]

another bow from the same display

it was said that this is mongol bow

Please, explain what time these bows could be made?

[jack farrell]

As Stephen has stated, when the Manchurians came to power in China, they brought their bow making type with them. Their dynasty is called Qing (1644-1912). One bow shop continued making bows in this style till about 1952? Mongolians still use this general style.

[Bashqort]

As Stephen has stated, when the Manchurians came to power in China, they brought their bow making type with them. Their dynasty is called Qing (1644-1912). One bow shop continued making bows in this style till about 1952? Mongolians still use this general style.

thanks!
i will send other pics of bashkir bows.
i found info (letter dated 1755) were stated that bows of northern tribes of bashkir were better than south tribes'.
it is strange a little bit, because among northern tribes we have tribes with finn ugor and bulgar origin - and might be that their bows were mostly finn ugor type (two wooden plates without horn)..
or nomadic life of southern tribes effected negatively bow making ability (it is hard to keep the same condition when making bows)
(northern tribes were semi nomadic or settled)

[Bede]

I have seen a similar shaped quiver in another collection. It shows relationship in shape to a late 18th century to early nineteenth century Middle Eastern types that also occur in Tibet. Generally these are thought to be steppe varieties of the military quivers of the Turkish and Mongol states of the period. Perhaps they date back to the Dzungars. No one has adequately mapped the appearance of military quivers of the period. There are surviving ones but not many are published.

I have seen evidence that quiver types migrated up the Caucasus and through the Crimea. There is less evidence that they also were passed through the Central Asian states in the 17th to 19th centuries. Moser collected some in the nineteenth century.

[Bashqort]

other bashkirian bows
http://img150.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=16112007157.jpg

[jack farrell]

Bashqort; Please tell us about these bows. Provenience. -j-

[Stephen Selby]

other bashkirian bows
http://img150.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=16112007157.jpg

Those bows are clearly not of Chinese origin. They seem similar to early Mongol bows, and resemble 18-19C western depictions of Mongol-Siberian bows. So I think they have a good chance to have been made in the homeland of the Bashkirs.

One possible test is to establish what wood was used for the siyahs or core (a microscopic examination of a small sample from the original is all that is required.) You can compare it to native woods. Central Asian bowyers tend to resort to native woods for their bows but may still use birch-bark, horn and sinew imported ed from far away.

[Bashqort]

Bashqort; Please tell us about these bows. Provenience. -j-

bow on left is from museum in Bashkortostan (as I remember)
picture on the center is also from museum in Bashkortostan,
the rigth one I found on the internet, where were said that this bow belong to bashkir rebels. (it is from one of central museums of Russia)

i guess the left one made from horn, central without, the right one i have no idea.
the left's siyahs looks like one mentioned on Saracene Archery.

by the way, bashkirs known to live at their current homeland from VI-IXc.
(between Ural(Yayik) and Volga(Idil) rivers)
at that time there wasnt any mongols, but hungars, bulgars, pecheneks, kypchaks, and we have not any relations to early mongols and late mongols also (except few tribes that came during invation)
Do you have any picture of western kypchaks-kumans, bulgars bows?

[Adam Karpowicz]

These bows look a lot like Crim-Tatar bows, with less or without the grip reflex. It makes sense since Bashkiria is far to the west and south of the Urals and the bow styles could easily mix. I have seen a very similar bow covered with painted cloth, but can not remember where that was (could be in the War Museum in Warsaw).

Adam

[Bashqort]

could be in the War Museum in Warsaw).
Adam

bashkirs were also within russian forces during Russia Poland wars. May be there some information left in Poland history or pictures about that time?