Some questions for Bede (and interested)

[Adam Karpowicz]

Murat:

The thumb release does not eliminate the issue of spine. The bows' grips have a certain width for the arrows to go around, they are not centershot.

If your draw length is 28" or so, and the bow is 50lb, both arrows should work reasonably well. With good release, arrows of higher spine could also be used.

If your draw is more than 28", you should use arrows spined higher than 40/50lb.

I wonder sometimes, if our knowledge about the ancients is not skewed. We base our knowledge on old texts. However, most people who were educated enough to write at the time were not the front men to do battle. Plus, references to religion were obligatory in all aspects of life, regardless of real "practical" need.

To kill without mercy and to obey orders without question, one needs to be in a group of trusted friends who do exactly the same. The religious orders helped to provide this cohesion, but would not teach how to shoot a bow.

Adam

[Murat ?zveri]

Adam,

The orthodox religious orders do not. But the practices of mystical schools may be helpful in enhancing the mental skills to learn and master martial arts, maybe shooting a bow too.

With the "higher spine" you think about 55-60, or so? Ironically, switching from 2018 shafts spined for 50 pound center shot recurve to weaker shafts (spined for 40 p. center shot) worked very well in reducing the inconsistency and fishtailing of the arrows.

BTW my draw is about 29.5'' when I use thumb release, 28.5'' when I shoot by anchoring to the corner of my mouth with 50 pound center shot recurve.

M.

[redhawk]

hi,
it is obvious that in every culture of the past and the present mystic or shamanic pratices are used to refine the human being and so we have a direct connection to religion.
The samurai-warriors were teached in different ways of selfcontrol,in mental skills,same story with the dog-soldiers among the Native Americans and nowadays GI?s or secret-service people or top athletes.
These people live a life like monks apart from their communities without sexual activities for to become a real master of his art.
All the very good archers I know try one those practises to refine their mental skills as a kind of basement for good and beautiful shots.
I guess Stephen could say a lot to this topic with his experience in Quigong and archery.

[Adam Karpowicz]

Murat:

Thumb release is sharper, so higher spined arrows can generally be used. I find wood arrows spined (as sold) for the same weight bows work well, also arrows spined 5-10lb higher. This is for arrows made of light woods, such as cedar or pine. Heavier arrows have to be spined higher for the same dynamic spine.

1" arrow length over 28" will require 5lb higher spine. I would think a wood arrow spined at 45-50lb would work well, if your bow is 40lb @ 29.5".

I never use aliminum or carbon arrows, spined high for centershot bows.

Adam

[Stephen Selby]

Agreed with Adam about spine. In fact, in my research on Chinese archery, although there is detailed attention given to the relationship between arrows and draw-weights, the concept of spine was never addressed. All attention was concentrated on the relationship between the weight of the arrow and the draw weight of the bow.

Arrows were barrelled. Because there was relatively little choice about the materials available to make arrows at any one time, their spine varied a lot. On the other hand, a set of arrows intended for the same bow could vary quite a lot in length.

In the Classics, it was pointed out that a shaft could bend differently according to the orientation in which the bamboo had grown. It was therefore important to ensure that in any set of arrows, the relative spine should be oriented in the same direction related to the nock.

[amatuccio]

Some one had rised here the problem to maintain allignement between elbows and shoulder during drawing.
I read in Arab treatises that they inist a lot on hands- elbows-shoulders alligment on horizontal plan. Do you mains the same things? Or do you refer to the vertical plan?
I.e. what is the more important allignement of elbows-shoulders, the horizontal or vertical one ?

Giovanni

[Stephen Selby]

The most important alignment would be in the horizontal (i.e. as seen from facing the archer's chest). It is not really possible to get a perfect elignment in the other planes.

The Chinese talked of 'five levels', meaning l fist, l elbow, l shoulder, r shoulder, r elbow. There were also 'three close', which was meant to achieve alignment as seen from above the archer.

S.

[Bede]

Giovanni,
Some of the old Arabic books, because of the original and then the problems in translation, are vague about exactly what they meant.

It is clear that they thought the elbows and the shoulders should be aligned and they mention aligning the hands. However, in Turkish flight archery there was some variation because the archer was shooting at almost 45 degrees.

My impression is that the hands were also aligned with each other, but, looking at some old photographs of Turkish archers provided to me by Murat, I think the alignment was meant to be in the drawing to get maximum benefit from the back muscles. At full draw, you might have to elevate the bow hand for increased range or tilt at the waist in the manner of Sultan Murat in the miniature of him kabak shooting from horseback.

Much of the advice on drawing the bow presupposed that the bow was heavy and you needed a balanced stance to keep control of it. My experience only extends to bows of 80 pounds, but I found it easier to draw the heavy bows by keeping hands, elbows and shoulders level for the first 75% of the draw.

[amatuccio]

Dear Stephen and Bede,

first we can define what we means for horizontal and vertical plans. I means for horizontal the imaginary (horizontal !) plan that pass above the archer's arms; for vertical: the imaginary plan that pass along the archer's body from up to down.
I agree that old arab books are often confused because of transaltions, but in this case they seems clear. They speak of an horizontal alignement, indicating precisely that elbows, hands and shoulders they must stand at the same distance from terrains.