Interesting Persian image of shower-shooting technique

Hyarmendacil · Post by **Hyarmendacil** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:49 pm

Got a link to this image from an arms-and-armor discussion group:

The archer at the bottom center seems to be using the kind of shower-shooting technique described by Taybugha. The most interesting thing is the way he holds the arrows with the point (rather than the feathers) in the drawing hand--am I right in assuming that it is perfectly legitimate to do it with the arrows facing either way? I can see the point-in-the hand version working for piles and bodkins, but for broadheads I'd rather risk ruining my feathers than cut my hand to ribbons.

(Maybe this should go into the Technique board instead, but I'm not sure so I'll just post it here and let the moderators decide.)

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:13 am

I think that generally the points were outside the hand as in the Japanese method. Otherwise the arrows would stick out sideways and get in the way of other soldiers. This is a Kashan plate and quite early, but there is a depiction of the same style of holding arrows on a piece of thirteenth century metal work from Mosul or Aleppo, I think, where the archer is a horseman rather than in a siege situation.

In both cases I think the arrows are being held between the little finger and the ring finger. The points, though not depicted, would be pointing up and slightly away from the face. I have used this technique for many years and would prefer to have my broadheads pointing up rather than down towards my thigh and the femural artery.

If I am not wrong, the image was first published in colour in a Thames and Hudson book on Islamic art. I can't tell you the title as I am several thousand miles away from my library. It would be very interesting to know if the image is in the public domain.

Hyarmendacil · Post by **Hyarmendacil** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:44 pm

Duh. An embarrassing blooper--the shower-shooting techniques I'm talking about weren't described in Taybugha's, but rather in the anonymous Arab Archery work.

BTW, Bede, do you have any pictures of your technique for holding the arrows in the way you described in the second paragraph of your post? I think I've tried similar techniques with mixed success, and a comparison with the method you use might be useful in showing me what I did wrong in the failed attempts.

I'd also be curious about any comments anybody can offer about the Faris & Elmer translation of the rapid-shooting section in Arab Archery. Do I need to watch out for potential mistranslations or interpretations taken a bit too far?

Murat ?zveri · Post by **Murat ?zveri** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:47 pm

This technique is for shooting three arrows one after another in a fast sequence. We have found a coin from Seldjuk (Sultan Rukneddin era) time on which a mounted archer shooting with the same techniqe is depicted. I was lucky enough to see the original coin in the Istanbul Archaelogical Museum's collection.

I think this technique was invented for close quarter fighting and hunting, especially on horseback.

Could you please tell me the exact origin of this depiction. Is that really Persian?

M.

Murat ?zveri · Post by **Murat ?zveri** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:49 pm

Opps! Tried to attach the picture of the coin but failed. Please see Picture 1 in

http://www.turkishculture.org/pages.php ... ageContent

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:17 am

Murat,
The image is from a plate from Kashan in Iran. It has been published several times.

Ken · Post by **Ken** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:25 am

There are probably clearer pictures of the coin of Kilij Arslan IV amongst these: http://www.zeno.ru/showgallery.php?cat=2322

The coin is quite rare and I've yet to come across one for sale.

ertug · Post by **ertug** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:48 am

[quote = "Murat ?zveri"] Opps! Paranın resmi takmak i?in ?alıştı ama başarısız oldu. L?tfen Resim 1 bakın

http://www.turkishculture.org/pages.php ... 8&miMore=1 # PageContent [/ quote]

Anadolu Sel?ukluları

Anatolia Seljuks

ertug · Post by **ertug** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:59 am

This technique , Mosul , Aleppo , Persian normal to see ,Turkey had dominated in these areas , review date.
Mamluk state official name: Ed Devletu't Turkey .
Mosul , Aleppo , Persian in these areas still oan speak Turkish.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:16 pm

That is a fine striking of the coin. The sharpness of the lines shows what a high quality mint it came from.

The arrow head looks like a hunting head of a type that is similar to east Asian ones. However, the position of the horseman's leg is similar to European and Byzantine technique and he seems to have spurs in some coins. This suggests that the image is a standard one rather than a portrait or a representation of a contemporary Turk. The upper part could be transplanted from a contemporary image onto an older image. The sultan may have liked the look of the horse.

ertug · Post by **ertug** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:58 pm

Anadolu Sel?ukluları

Anadolu Sel?uklu [/ quote]

Gokmen · Post by **Gokmen** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:27 pm

Look at this pic attached. It is from Fatih Sultan Mehmed the Conqueror's scribble book. It shows early Ottoman horsearchers holding the arrows in the drawing hand. I use this technique on horseback and it is really convenient. As to the question weather the points should look up or down, it doesnt matter for an experienced archer. if you have big broadheads you can keep the points down, if you have small Turkish bodkins you can keep them up. The technique is almost the same.

I demonstrated this technique in EOCHA this year and people were astonished as most of them used the 3 finger release and also those who used a thumb release didnt know it. Feedback was positive.
While using this technique I even used an arrow which was between my fingers as a whip, then nocked and shot.

Concerning the dish with the picture, it might be from todays Kashan/Iran, but it doesnt mean that the people depicted are not Turks, remember Iran was part of the Seljuk Empire and still today the second language in Iran is Turkish.
Anyway it doesnt matter as I strongly assume this technique was widespread among all horsearchers as it obviously has great advantages. The Japanese use it too and I have even seen a historic Korean painting with this technique.

cheers

Gokmen

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daryush · Post by **daryush** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:31 pm

I find that the arrows wobble quite a lot when my draw hand follows through - is there any way of stopping this?

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:09 am

Gokmen,
I cannot see that this painting shows anything other than someone holding an arrow in their drawing hand. It does not suggest anything other than they might be going to shoot. The other examples in this thread show people drawing and holding at the same time. There is no reason that the Osmanli soldiers did not draw with arrows in the drawing hand, but there is little evidence. The shorter quivers that became popular are probably the reason that it died out.

In the illustrations showing arrows held in the drawing hand and the current Japanese practice all show the arrows point up. This keeps the points away from your thigh and the the femoral artery. Perhaps in fighting, you could punch an enemy who suddenly got too close with a fistful of arrowheads.

Most of us who have shot this way realise that you can hold many more arrows than the two often shown in the old illustrations. However, does using the greater number make sense? Probably in charging an enemy, you would not have had a chance to shoot more than three arrows before you have to either charge home or veer off to avoid contact. The first choice would involved in putting away the bow and drawing a sword or mace. The second would require you to take up the reins and turn your horse's head away from the enemy.

Regarding the Kashan plate, the armour ad the hairstyles suggest that the archers are Turks, possibly Selcuk from the location and time that is was produced.

TZH · Post by **TZH** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:36 pm

A kuman from Kakaslomnic (Transilvania)

http://eletfa.mediacenter.hu/homofaber/ ... _kun_e.jpg

Zolt