New entry - Chinese arrows

[Gianrico]

Hello,

I have enjoyed your posts for a moment before to subscribe. I am a beginner in oriental archery but it is very interesting, I'm organizing a "switch" to turkish archery, it will take about two year, just the delivery time for a brand new turkish bow (and for training, of course ).

Not annoying you with details on me anymore, I have some doubts/questions on chinese arrows: I've seen some chinese arrows, they have a wide space between nock and feathers, and feathers was long until about the half length of whole shaft. I was wondering of such design.
Other question: what kind of feathers was used for chinese arrows?

Another "technical question" I had is about tanged arrowheads: this kind of head doesn't break the shafts by the repeated shocks, opening wood fibers? I've thinked at this looking at some beautiful tanged arrowheads...

Decidely, I have more questions than answers....

Thanking you in advance for your messages,

Best regards

Gianrico

[MJuingong]

Gianrico:

Welcome.

I read a book by Chenevix-Tench some years ago, THE HISTORY OF MARKSMANSHIP. He contends that socketed shafts could handle metal penetration better than tanged, especially at long ranges. I seem to remember a conversation I had with Helmut Nickel, then former Curator of the Arms and Armor section of the New York City Metropolitan Museum of Art, in which Mr. Nickel said the same thing (perhaps 1985?)

I do note that English longbow shafts, which were socketed, were able to penetrate mail at long range (although what long range is I don't know). At least in the early Crusades [i.e. 1096-1194] Crusader mail was considered adequate protection from Turkic and Arab archery except at close range. Turks and Arabs at that time used largely tanged shafts, maybe exclusively. I also note that in the time of the Ottomans, European plate armor was considered protective against the Ottoman archers even at close range. English Longbows could penetrate 14th to early 16th century plate at 90 degree angles. Ottomans used tanged shafts.

I believe Taybugha, in SARACEN ARCHERY, may mention the problems in making a good socket that would neither break the shaft nor be broken by it {but I may be confusing this with another work}. I think one of the archery magazines of the late 1940s once had a picture of a 16th century Persian socketed arrowhead, showing a break of one side of the socket.

In fairness, the majority of the Asian arrowheads of iron/steel that have survived might not be of the best quality anyway.

[Stephen Selby]

I have just had a look at some Qing Chinese arrows here. The average length from the inside of the nock to the tip of the steel point is 104cm. They are barelled, with a maximum diameter of 1.2cm. Fletching is offset 5cm from the inside of the nock and the length of the triple fletch is 22cm.

Fletching of about 1/5 of the length of the shaft is common. I agree that longer fletching sometimes apeears. I suspect they were for show or for signalling.

The fletching was made from the long wing feathers of raptors, the Mongolian vulture being a common choice.

The points are tanged, with a winding of sinew covered in peach bark to reinforce them. With such reinforcement, I doubt if the wood would split.

[Bede]

I agree with Stephen about the toughness of tanged arrow heads in use against most surfaces.

The English longbow tests that were published in "The Glade" showed that certain types of socketed head broke as well when shot from heavy bows against hard armour. Various televised and published tests show that, unless the shape of the heand and the angle of impact are correct, socketed shafts will break where the shaft enters the socket.

Indo-Persian arrows with armour-piercing heads usually have long tangs, when you use a magnet to examine them. The technique of wrapping the shaft with sinew created a strong area which was unlikely to split. Many reproductions do not follow the originals when sinew wrapping was used. They make the wrapping too bulky.

There are quite a few Japanese armour-piercing arrow heads with long tangs too. The tang is generally not hardened, but the arrow heads often are of excellent steel.

Aside from wrapping the shaft with sinew or silk, fletchers also used horn, bone and metal ferrules on more decorative arrows.

To compare the effectiveness of archery between cultures is difficult, but it is worth noting the marching plan that Richard the Lionheart used on his march to the battle of Arsuf was never considered necessary in Europe against European bowmen. The European knights fighting the Ottomans had no more success than the French fighting the English archers either in certain large battles.

There are also some interesting comments in both Saracen Archery and in Arab Archery about shooting at targets that suggest that the archers in those days liked powerful bows with flat trajectories.

Even as late as the Indian Mutiny, archers were reported shooting arrrows through bone (the skull) from a distance. I think that when tests are done with well made tanged arrow heads shot from powerful bows, we might be surprised at their effectiveness.

[Stephen Selby]

Another thing about arrowheads breaking off is that sometimes you want them to (e.g. poisoned arrowheads of arrowheads that can cause death if they are left in a wound .)

[Gianrico]

Hello,

Thanks to your all for your answers, things are more clear now about chinese arrows.
About tangs, I agree with Stephen and Bede. Bede has touched very important points - as far as I know - when he speaks of "flat trajectories" and powerful bows. In a ancient treatise on principles and training of byzantine archery (translated by Giovanni Amatuccio), we can read the three most important things in archery are: 1) straight shooting, 2) precision in shooting and 3) powerful shooting. This principles must to be very ancient if we think at the Odysseus history, among others...

I'm still waiting some hardware and tools for fletching etc., and for now I do not have a powerful bow (just 46#), but it would be interesting to make some experiences with tanged and socketed points. I also had the idea of putting some schock-absorber, like leather ring or other material, between point and shafts. But I don't know if it's a good idea....

Best regards

Gianrico

[Alam ed Din, Adnan]

Bede;
I know this isn't exactly on chinese arrows, but concerning Arab arrows,
do you know of this site? It has many many interesting facts on mediaval
"Saracene" Arab archery plus some pictures under section-on bows-.
If you go on"Home" and than on "texts" there is yet another extensive
work on arab archery to see. Greetings & Salaam

[url] http://www.caama.ca/kitab/c5.html

[Bede]

Alam,
I am aware of the site thanks to another posting on ATARN. The translated sections of the books are displayed without the commentaries of Latham and Paterson which are in the book, Saracen Archery. This is a good, quick way to find details, but I think the book itself is more valuable. It is important to get the background of the chapters, how the translation was arrived at and what parts are imprecise.

Bede

[Alam ed Din, Adnan]

I agree with what you say. ( Can you direkt me to the post at ATARN where you found this link previously)??

Greetings & Salaam