ADVANTAGES OF DRAWING BEYOND EAR, OVER DRAWING TO MOUTH.

[mongolianarcher]

Oh Bede, so since firearms took over long range, they wanted their bows to focus on killing power instead of range.

[jbl]

Many historians say it was the cannon that lead to bows not being used in battle not the gun.

[Bede]

I think that cannon had a much greater effect on cavalry than on archery. Infantry squares in the Napoleonic era had to approach fairly close for the muskets to have the desired effect. Muzzle loading, smooth bore muskets had a cone of fire. The ball went in the direction of the last bounce in the barrel so aiming was not much of an option at long distances.

Archery was killed off in Europe because hand guns could be used by anyone, fit or not. They could be produced in large numbers more easily than cross bows. The effect of the musket balls was serious and made armour useless. The slow rate of fire was compensated by drilling the infantry. Mass use reduced the need for accuracy. They were ideal for state use since guns could be produced and stored as could the ammunition.

Bows and arrows deteriorate in storage. People need more practice to use them well. In Europe, cavalry was not bow using except in Poland and Hungary.

This is a very complicated topic because archery survived in different places and died out quickly in others.

[mongolianarcher]

Are there any records of european nations being famed for their archers/horsearchers other than UK and hungary? Also what was the name of the bows the polish used?

[Bede]

Archers were used all over Europe. The English, Welsh and Scots are well known, but the French raised troops of archers as did the Burgundians in the late Middle Ages. Archery was prominent in Scandinavia and it the southern Slavic states in various periods. In some areas like Switzerland and Italy, crossbows were popular. States in the area occupied by the present states of Germany and the Netherlands were also big crossbow users.

Judging from surviving manuscripts, various hand bows were used all over Europe, but their prominence in warfare varied with the time you are looking at. The Poles apparently used locally made and imported composite bows. There were both Tatars and Armenians in the Polish Commonwealth who made bows. Undoubtedly there were native Polish makers of composite bows too.

In areas like Sicily and Spain that had an Arab presence, both local and imported archery traditions existed. The Hohenstaufan emperor, Frederick II, established a colony of Sicilian Arabs at Lucera in southern Italy to supply his army with archers.

Because of the well known successes of English longbowmen, sometimes the other archers in Europe are forgotten, but they did exist. The use of foreign horse archers is also known. Eastern Europe had more horse archery than the western part of the continent.

This is a really big area of study and covers a very long time.

[jbl]

The Poles and Russians copied many of the Tatar forms of dress and warfare. The Poles and other Eastern European countries used the bow well into the 17th Century. Both of these countries were (are) Steppe countries that relied heavily on cavalry.

[Alan Flashing]

Very interesting and informative Bede, thank you very much.
alan

[Orda Khan]

The Poles and Russians copied many of the Tatar forms of dress and warfare. The Poles and other Eastern European countries used the bow well into the 17th Century. Both of these countries were (are) Steppe countries that relied heavily on cavalry.

Nevsky introduced these changes very early in the Mongol western campaign. It makes sense to adopt the tactics that destroyed your armies, not to mention gaining favour among your new masters.

[jbl]

It is said that the army lead by Yermak at the River Irtysh in 1582 looked so much like the Mongol/Tatar army you could not tell them apart except for the Cossack banners.

[ginni]

I would mention moldavian and valachian archers too.

[Dusan]

Uch , boys . Avar kaganat use slav soldiers 600 years before mongols . And who know what happend before...100 km around Dunaj river are thousands and thousands Skitas arrowheads. And Alans, Celts .... Every step bandits endid his step hiwey near Dunaj river.

[Riss Gong]

Good time of day, dear Sirs,
It is hard to say now who used whom in oldtimes war campaigns. If you can occupy a country, burning 14 villages of more than 400 well fortified towns, then you may be a Leader of Mongol Army (mythical one). This was the case with the North-eastern Russia (Vladimir-Suzdal). And it happened in WINTER, when not only composite bows cannot shoot well, but you cannot feed yourself, not to mention horses, camels and cattle to feed the army and hay to feed the horses and oxes who carry the food to feed the soldiers and have to eat themselves... Its a headache. Many clever guys tried to do this even later. Napoleon started to lose his horses in July in Lithuainea, "due to cold rains" in the beginning of his campaign.
Well, I am getting far from the topic... Sorry.
In Russian Army the bows and arrows were adopted for the irregular military units even in 19th century, do not remember the date, but in the middle of the century this weapon officialy was purchased. And transition to fire arms was due not to the efficiency, but merely to economic considerations. When this happened bows sometimes were more lethal and more speedy weapon, than smoothbores, but the cost of a gun with supply of powder and bullets cost at that time two times less, than ordinary composite bow and 60 to 80 arrows (traditions were different with various peoples).
So the tradition was killed not in action, but at accountant's table.

[Orda Khan]

Which brings us to another point so often mentioned about composite bows. Obviously they were less prone to weather conditions than we are given to believe. I have stressed many times that there must have been a very efficient lacquer or other covering that prevented deterioration. The Huns, Avars and Magyars ... and the Mongols didn't seem to be troubled overly by weather conditions.

[Alan Flashing]

I have to agree with Orda on this , they could not have just ceased all campaigning just because of a turn in the weather. Must have been able to weatherproof them somehow. Lukas Novotny has told me that a bit of foul weather will not hurt them if constructed and sealed correctly. Also I have understood that besides the small rituals to keep them tuned and shooting correctly that they are one of the more durable weapons out there.
Alan

[jbl]

Many of the campaigns by Steppe people occured during winter because it was easier for them to cross frozen rivers. So yes I would imagine that their bows were very durable in all types of weather.