ADVANTAGES OF DRAWING BEYOND EAR, OVER DRAWING TO MOUTH.

[TZH]

Sure, except of heavy rain and storm.

TZH

[ravenbows]

This is the problem and we can read the history books and do the translations and we can listen to the bowyer's.........but when all is said and done.......we need real life experience. Someone who has taken the hornbow to the forest in bad weather, repeatedly, exposing the bow to the elements and then asking it to perform after that exposure.

I need to speak to someone who puts meat on the table from use of the hornbow. The only bowyer that I have contact with hunts and eats the food the he harvest.............he also uses a hybrid that he built himself. Made of horn and wood and glass. He has killed many deer and even though the bow does have synthetic materials, he still has to make adjustments with the tiller when he strings the bow.

Who has harvested game with such a bow. By the way this is way off topic but interesting none the less.

[mongolianarcher]

May I ask who that bowyer may be?

[Anda]

In reference to what Bede stated concerning the history of archery in Europe; even some of the Norse(Vikings)were familiar with the Eurasian bow. Several graves near the old trading town of Birka contain grave goods which are a mix of Eurasian and Nordic design, including the remains of several Eurasian bows. Several of the old Nordic sagas refer to "Hunbogi"(Hun Bows). The history of archery in Europe is more complex than most people realize.

[jsachers]

Many European (Germanic) peoples got into contact with composite bows: in battles with the Huns, the Avars, the Magyars, the Mongols, and during the crusades. Visual representations from the 6th to the 10th centuries show Germanic warriors (Franks, Alemans, etc.) drawing bows that can be considered to be of composite construction, judging by their shape.
But it is widely believed that these bows were mostly trophies of war, maybe goods of trade, and they may even have been bought from their makers. They may have been put to use as well, but foremost they became a symbol of status ??that's why they were also used as grave goods.
We have no indication that Germanic bowyers ever developed the abilities to build composite bows themselves.

In Latin sources from ancient and medieval times the composite bow is usually referred to as "arcus scythicus" (Scythian bow) regardless of its shape or origin. In early Germanic records (Sagas etc.) the words "hunbogi" or "hornbogi" have the same meaning, i.e. a short reflexed bow of composite construction.

[ravenbows]

mongolianarcher..........that is James Parker of huntworthy. He has used a turk style bow that is a hybrid for some years and per him has shot alot of deer with it.

I seen the bow in action and it is a VERY good performing bow.

[Alan Flashing]

Likewise on James Parkers bows, think they are great performers, have heard nothing but good about his work.
A friend of mine in England is expecting one very soon. Look forward to her thoughts on it.
Alan

[Riss Gong]

Recently I finished with my Turkish bow. All natural, ashwood, horn, sinew, goat skin, damar laquer... What else? Flax fiber string. Just started to train it.
Winter this year is relatively cool in Moscow. Tried it outdoors at -10 Centigrades.
Cruel, but lack of patience is one my bad features.
Two or three shots were normal. The following shots became less and less speedy. The arrows at 30 m came 50 cm lower at the target.
Of course I took the bow to warm room immediately. Only after that collected arrows. After couple of hours in warm room, training and warming it up with drawings, not with a furnace, went outdoors, the result was the same.
Why?
The answer is simple: the all-natural-composite bows work only when sinew layers keep moisture. Less moisture - more hard bow you have and even prone to fractuation. Too much moisture - the bow is too weak and needs drying before shooting. Adequate level of moisture - you take bow and shoot with pleasure.
What happens in frost? The moisture starts to freeze, and sinew stops working. Imagine frozen meat. Remember, the sinew in the bow is fresh, not boiled.
And waterproof lacquer has nothing to do with coldproofing. Lacquer and skin keep moisture inside, not letting it evaporate under normal conditions - warm or hot, relatively damp weather.
To shoot under frosty conditions you need different bows - like northern nomads used from Norway to Bering Strait and beyond.
Mongolian bows are not intended for this - as far as I know, Mongolians never used bows in winter. Their bows were kept in special jurta where meat was stored - cool and damp. Mongols braced their bows only in spring, when the season of hunting and pasturing of cattle.
Actually they started to be called Mongols only at the end of 19th century. Many of the Mongolians realised that they are Mongols only in the middle of the 20th century, when clever guys from Europe told them about this "historical fact".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxbcVQug7TU

[Riss Gong]

Many of the campaigns by Steppe people occured during winter because it was easier for them to cross frozen rivers. So yes I would imagine that their bows were very durable in all types of weather.

You really can imagine steepe horseback army crossing rivers (or travelling along rivers ) in winter? Did you ever see Animal Planet, showing horses or cows on ice? We have a proverb "like a cow on ice". Should I explain the meaning?
Well, you crossed with your horses. Two times as much horses as men. With what are you going to feed them? With a stack of hay which you occaisionally happen to pick with you like a pair of sandwiches?
Than you very nice joke. Will tell it to my friends and will laugh together with you
On Jan 7 went on a horseride in the forest around Moscow. That is far from real taiga and snow is extremely low. It is deeper than in previous couple of years, but still you cannot sink in the snow to your waist - only to one's knees. And still we had to choose roads, beaten by snowbikers. Oherwise - the walk is very short.
And to dig out grass from beneath the snow? It might be possible in Mongolian steepe, where snow is blown away by winds and usually is very thin.
Conclusion - you may come to Eurasia northern parts only if you have enough food stored all over the country and in local population is extremely, tremendously hospitable. Ohterwise (see above) the walk is very short. And oneway only.

[Riss Gong]

We have no indication that Germanic bowyers ever developed the abilities to build composite bows themselves.

Well, people, to begin with, I do not like when our ancestors are considered to be a bit stupid, a bit lazy, a bit useless. So what we are in this case?
Composite bow belongs to all peoples of Euroasia. How can you imagine people, dealing with cattle, skins, sinew, horns, wood, etc. and not making composite bow? What was lacking with them? They did not need it? They were happy with an oak branch tied with worn out rope?
I am sure, and nobody will be able to presuade me in opposite, that all Euroasian people knew how to use those raw materials and were clever enough to make composite bows on their own.
I remember one interesting historical happening. Russian Tsar Boris Godunov maintained frendly relations with one of Austrian leaders Archduke Maximillian (don't remember exactly his name and title, correct me, who knows), once sent him a gift - thumbring, made of nephrite, decorated with gold, rubies, turquoise and so on. Accompanied with various other precious items. And no bow.
What it means?
It means that high-ranking Austrians (at least) had composite bows, knew how to use them and knew how to use thumbring. Otherwise this gift is useless and funny.
In Moscow we have Luchnikov Pereulok (Bowmakers' Shortstreet). I think that inhabitants were busy with making composite bows. Other bows are senseless with mounted armed forces.
And if we can make such bows nowdays, why could not our ancestors make them?

[Dusan]

Wellcom Ris. In the end one from Russia ! We need sombody , like you . Many Atarns are exciting readers "mongolian" literature and trust many "fantastic " teories from the table...
We need meaning from man who know eastern reality.

[Riss Gong]

...we need real life experience. Someone who has taken the hornbow to the forest in bad weather, repeatedly, exposing the bow to the elements and then asking it to perform after that exposure.

To some extent a relatively ordinary life experience may help. One of my friends made a horn bow for himself (merely personal use). As his soul is wide enough and he likes himself so much, he was not saving on sinew... So the bow happened to be a replika of Ulysses bow (remember greek tales of Old Homer ) Nobody could draw it to full length. Due to keeping in dry room it earned more and more poundage. He, strong enough man, can draw it dozen times, then cure his back for a couple of weeks.
Last summer he took it to Medieval Festival somewhere in forests of the Great Russian Plain. The bow was kept in a tent. It rained, it was hot, the weather was changing and the bow became softer. He was able to shoot more and more without consequenses. The rain was not a problem, the bow appeared to be waterproof enough. It just absorbed necessary moisture.
When he came home, laid the bow in ordinary home conditions. And the bow gained back its strenght. Till next outdoors experience.

[Riss Gong]

Many of the campaigns by Steppe people occured during winter because it was easier for them to cross frozen rivers.

Which exactly campaigns do you mean?
Winters were always the most quiet time. In Russia at least.

[jsachers]

Well, what we believe and what we can prove are two distinctively different things. One may believe that Germanic craftsmen developed the skills necessary to build composite bows and then did so. But we have no single specimen, no written document, no works of art, NOTHING AT ALL, to prove it. Quite to the contrary, many written sources clearly indicate that the composite bow was always associated with foreign peoples, not with Germanic tribes.
These peoples from the steppes ??Huns, Mongols, Avars, Magyars etc. ??had their own way of fighting, their own battle tactics, that included fast horses with lightly armed riders using short but strong bows. Their enemies, i.e. the Germanic peoples of central or northern Europe, had their own way of fighting that mainly, but not exclusively, relied on the use of the lance, the shield, the sword, poleaxe, mace etc. in a combination of heavy and light cavalry and infantry. Completely different tactics.
The Germanic warriors and craftsmen were not stupid or lazy. They just saw no need to invest hours and hours of labour to produce a weapon they had no specific need for.

Riss ??just in case there has been a misunderstanding, I'm talking about late ancient and early or high medieval times, let's say the 4th to the 13th centuries. Boris Godunov lived and ruled at the end of the 16th century. When the Austrians fought off the Ottoman invasion, they also seized a fair number of Turkish bows that can still be seen on display in the Zeughaus museum in Vienna. By that time, they had long learned the use of the hornbow ? as they already had in the 6th or 7th centuries.
But to use it and to make it are "two different pairs of boots".

And yes, the English archers of Poitiers, Cr?cy, Agincourt were quite happy with their long crooked yew stick and their hemp strings.

[ravenbows]

RISS GONG.................YOU HAVE SAID ALLOT..............but you have failed to answer my question in search of someone who has used a horn bow in bad weather......extreme cold and wet..........and was able to put meat on the table with it year in and year out.

You mentioned some festival.............much different than the rigors of hunting in the brush.

It sounds like you are answering a question in which you have no experience.