ADVANTAGES OF DRAWING BEYOND EAR, OVER DRAWING TO MOUTH.

[Stephen Selby]

Of the many old composite bows I have examined - some dating back to 800BCE - most have survived extraordinarily well. Most damage that I have seen on them was not caused by excessive cold or moisture, but from physical abuse, excessive heat (burning) or insect/rodent attack. Incidentally, hornbows are very nourishing. Rodents and insects love them.

[Riss Gong]

RISS GONG.................YOU HAVE SAID ALLOT

You mentioned some festival.............much different than the rigors of hunting in the brush.

It sounds like you are answering a question in which you have no experience.

You are right. I have no experience of hunting in a bush. I have to spend a lot of time to get to one and start hunting.
I spent my childhood not far from Siberia - one mountain ridge left to cross.
When I was 11 I made my first flat bow of elm tree. Thanx a lot to Seton Tompson and his books... Just followed the chapter describing how to make an indian bow written for children. If you remember, there were tow boys and one old man-instructor, they also made tipi, and so on.
And started hunting not for food, of course, but because elks where everywhere around in taiga. I don't know what bush is and taiga is more comfortable place for hunting, to my mind. So I cannot help you.
I remember that sometimes if you carry something heavy and go along narrow path, a curious elk will for sure block the way and you have nearly to push him off while he is glazing at you with much interest. You go to gather mushrooms and have to move elk horns, left form winter dinners of wolves... Well, those faraway days, life was much easier. And no need to look for some bushes to get a game... In our bushes you can take some birds and hedgehogs, maybe. My dog usually does this for me.
Next week me and a couple of my friends a going to get a wild boar, if we have luck, because Moscow forests are less copious than northern and eastern taiga.
Now, follow my thoughts, I wll not take my horn bow to take a game in winter. Never in winter. I will keep it till warmer seasons. Why? Guess.
I will take with me Korean composite made of wood and glassfiber. And covered with lacquer. I sustains frost easily. Because it has nothing inside to freeze. No water!
And nobody will make me to experiment with my hornbow, which I've been making nearly for one year. In March will be 12 months exactly. Two times had to dismatle everything and start over again.

About festival outdoors. To spend there 3 or 5 days sometimes (in some specific aspects) is much more dangerous and rigorous than a month of hunting in normal taiga.

[Adam Karpowicz]

Good luck on your boar hunt, I wish I could join you! I actually hunted with hornbows in wet weather and in the "bush" and even left bows outside in the rain for the night (not ahem.. on purpose) with no problems, other than slight loss of performance which can easily be compensated by adjusting the aim, although even that was not really required for up to 20 yard shots). The bows were leather covered with a coat of paint/varnish. After a day or two like that the bows need drying of course. As to the cold - I do not shoot outside below zero centigrade, because it is very hard on the fingers, so I can not tell what happens in much lower temperatures. Bows are very dry in warm interiors when the weather is cold and gain weight. I suspect the loss of cast compared to summer conditions when taken outside would not be much, if any at all. This requires experimenting.

My favourite reading are old travelogues from the east. I recall a 14th c. (I think it could be 13th?) of western emissaries to the Mongol court, who desperately tried to acquire native Mongol (Tatar) horses to travel in winter through Russia. Apparently only these horses could dig vegetation from under the snow for sustenance, unlike any other breeds and were not bothered by the cold. Travel was not possible at the time without these horses. The "Tatars" were described as wild and tough as the animals themselves who had no trouble to survive in the brutal conditions which was the source of astonishment for the westerners at the time. It is not to say they willingly went out to plunder in the winter, but certainly were not suffering as the French in 1812.

Adam

[jsachers]

Adam ? might this have been William of Rubruck? Modern reports agree that Mongolian horses are able to survive in harsh conditions in winter. But of course in case of a battle campaign we're talking thousands of horses, not to speak of the men that have to be nourished as well. Looting? Well, you can't expect to come across a village with richly filled barns and cellars every day. I confess I am deeply suspicious as to medieval campaigning in winter ?

[Dusan]

Boys, you still forget abot "snowball " efect Temudzin army. In fact , original tribes united from Mongolia stepes vith his horses was only 3/10 whool army anad next time maybe lover %.
In other point horse archers was maybe base these arme , but very quickly introduc all modern mashines and rockets etc. from China. Mongols army was most modern army in world in this time. Not only bow...Its out thopic , sorry.

[Bede]

I believe that Batu Khan took Kiev on the 6th of December on St Nicholas Day in 1240. In Australia, that would be the middle of summer, but in the northern hemisphere it would be winter.

In 1238, the Mongol army had taken Vladimir on February the 8th.

There is an entry in the Baburnama where some of Babur's troops beat some of their enemies because the composite bows could shoot in the extreme cold, but the steel bows of their enemies snapped. The Babarnama is a first hand account by someone who was there in the mountains of Northern India when this happened.

Mongol bows in the time of the Western campaigns were physically smaller than modern ones. They could be kept inside your clothes to warm them up. The moisture content in the sinew should have been low enough not to have posed a serious freezing problem. Adam might be able to tell us the moisture content of a fully cured sinew layer. I tested two of his bows that I have here with a moisture meter and couldn't get a reading. In one way that was interesting because the air here has 68% humidity at the moment so it has not penetrated the leather yet.

Regarding the dates I quoted, anyone reading the original Russian chronicles will have dates that are slightly out because the calendar used then was out of synchronisation with ours.

The Mongols themselves wrote very little about how their bows performed except for occasional record shots and battle descriptions. It was the people they were fighting who made records of their equipment for military reasons.

[Adam Karpowicz]

I have not looked yet into the issue of freezing etc, but below zero the moisture in the bow does not "freeze", since it is the bound water within the structure of the material, not free water. At equilibrium with the ambient humidity, the bows in very cold temperatures should actually have less moisture, because less water can be held in the air. However, a bow equilibrated at higher humidity and suddenly taken outside below zero may have some of the moisture leaving the structure to cause softening of materials. Fortunately indoor humidity in winter is very low too, so I do not see how this can occur in normal circumstances. The time for full equilibrium for a finished and painted bow would be several days to two weeks.

Adam

[Adam Karpowicz]

I just recalled the steel crossbow prods in Europe were known to snap in the cold, while the composite prods were still useable. Someone may want to verify this, I may be mistaken.

Adam

[Orda Khan]

Adam,
I think the account you mention of the journey to the Mongol court, was 'The Story of the Mongols whom we call Tartars' by Friar Giovanni DiPlano Carpini. You are quite right when you mention low humidity in below zero temperatures, it's one of the reasons we get chapped lips.

Riss Gong,
Sorry, to make a statement that Mongols kept their bows wrapped up until warm weather is rewriting every historical account of the Mongol campaigns. As for composite bows (ie sinew, wood, horn) in Europe (prior to those taken during Ottoman campaigns) it would be nice to see some evidence; or do you mean the bows used by the Huns, Avars, Magyars? As far as I know, these are the only examples.

Bede,
Thanks for the dates, there are others as well. The Mongols actually took time out during the warmer months to drill their new prisoners

[Riss Gong]

Well, what we believe and what we can prove are two distinctively different things. One may believe that Germanic craftsmen developed the skills necessary to build composite bows and then did so. But we have no single specimen, no written document, no works of art, NOTHING AT ALL, to prove it. Quite to the contrary, many written sources clearly indicate that the composite bow was always associated with foreign peoples, not with Germanic tribes.
They just saw no need to invest hours and hours of labour to produce a weapon they had no specific need for.

But to use it and to make it are "two different pairs of boots".

And yes, the English archers of Poitiers, Cr?cy, Agincourt were quite happy with their long crooked yew stick and their hemp strings.

Sorry for a pause. I will try to reply in order of appearence...
About German "tribes". Let's state theises first. Maybe som wouldn't need any arguments.
- Germans were not "tribes". It was well organized army sent to inhabit sparcely populated areas or Europe.
- Origin of these "tribes"? As they came from Russia, they lived in close contact with other "tribes" or Ords (Hords as written currently), i.e. Armies, which actively produced and constantly improved composite bows. So Germans have to live with tightly closed eyes and tied hands not to produce commonly available weapon. Starvation and other sufferings was their destiny. Oh, new "historic" opening! That was the cause why they moved to modern Germany. They could not sustain such deterioration anymore. How they managed to occupy such territories and fight with Roman Legions? To defeat someone you must be at least not worse, and best of all - a bit better than the opponent. No Barbarian tribe had ever defeated any opponent standing at higher rank in culture and technincs. If you believe in opposite - stop reading Tolkien and other "historical annals". Only well organized Army with highly efficient weapon, better tactics and logistics could succeed. By the way, Germans still have this word in their vocabular "Orda"="ordnung'="order". Currently Tartar Ordas are surviving in Russia and some are flourishing. In Russian we call them kazak (cossak) "voisko"="army"="orda". Tartars were named Kazaks for the first time only in 14c chronicles. And only in 19c. some Turk peoples (or tribes) werу called Tatars, to support the "Mongol-Tatar Invasion Fairy Tale". Ironically, the name of Tartars received former Volga Bulgars, who were allegedly first to suffer from that Invasion in Europe. Still need some info about this Greatest Historical Joke? We may make a separate topic and I have some prooves.
- Germans had no need to invest hours and extra labor - they just had it. Otherwise they were eradicated by Romans who possessed already such weapons form Middle East, and their own versions of composite bows. Or they should have lived with closed eyesl, tied hands... ooops. See above. But German bows appeared to be better.
- One more point about tactics: axes, swords, spears, and other white weapons, are designed for show offs at courts, for settling down individual disputes, well maybe to eventually cleanup a battlefield. I talked to may martial art specialist. They all agree, that the only weapon designed for war was bow and arrow. The first weapon of samurais was yumi, only centuries later swords appeared. Do not mistify yourself - the only weapon capable to win a war in the past was bow. Composite. Or longbow. Traditional. And that is why the Englishmen were quite happy at Poitiers, etc. They might be less happy, if French Roi was a bit less prone to technical progress - he just ordered to replace french archers with crossbowers. No further prooves needed.

Good shots!

[Riss Gong]

Good luck on your boar hunt, I wish I could join you!

My favourite reading are old travelogues from the east. I recall a 14th c. (I think it could be 13th?) of western emissaries to the Mongol court, who desperately tried to acquire native Mongol (Tatar) horses to travel in winter through Russia. Apparently only these horses could dig vegetation from under the snow for sustenance, unlike any other breeds and were not bothered by the cold. Travel was not possible at the time without these horses. The "Tatars" were described as wild and tough as the animals themselves who had no trouble to survive in the brutal conditions which was the source of astonishment for the westerners at the time. It is not to say they willingly went out to plunder in the winter, but certainly were not suffering as the French in 1812.

Adam

Thank you for your kind wishes, but here, in Russia, hunters are very superstitious, and getting such wishes they must reply something like "all these wishes should go to hell". The best wish before hunting sounds like "I wish you get neither fur, nor feather". And even this kind wish is sent to above address. Traditions...

The travel of western emissaries to Mongol court may be discussed, if necessary, separately.
But Mongol horses, are quite able to dig relatively thin snow. Deep snows are lethal to them as for other horses. Helas. You should remember that "Monglol-Tartars" during first "visit" to Europe chased their enemies Polovtsy. These Turk people, christians, by the way, lived in steppe and to support their horses collected hay at special locations, covered again snow storms. If one wanted to eliminate these people, he needed to find these strategic supplies of hay and burn it. These horse people would have to migrate to warmer lands. If they had time. But, Polovets horses were of the same breeding as "Mongolian" ones. Actually all steppe peoples from melenhlets to kirgiz and calmuks have the same type of horses. The problem is not with Fairy Horses of Unknown Tribes, the problem is the territory and climate. If you do not want to see guests, just turn away from them and sep aside and mind your business. If they burn some wooden villages - not much harvest they get. The villages will be built again next summer. All the same they burn on their own every year.

Oh, you seem to have some snow in Europe this winter? Find a deep (1-1,5 m) enough place filled with snow and try to dig to the ground, to see some green grass. And late in the evening, drinking beer imagine a horse, equipped with showel to fetch meal for her breakfast, dinner and supper. But "Mongolian Horses" were capable to do much more. Actually it were them, who masterminded and lead the invasion!

But the French in 1812 started suffering much earlier than winter - in July!

[Riss Gong]

Boys, you still forget abot "snowball " efect Temudzin army. In fact , original tribes united from Mongolia stepes vith his horses was only 3/10 whool army anad next time maybe lover %.
In other point horse archers was maybe base these arme , but very quickly introduc all modern mashines and rockets etc. from China. Mongols army was most modern army in world in this time. Not only bow...Its out thopic , sorry.

I must agree with above! You are completely right. At some points.
But all correct notions are precepted at different angles. Again thesises:
- "Snowball" effect of Jihangir Army. (Jihangir=Vladimir=Lord of the World. And this is not name - this is just job. position.) Temudzin is one of multiple names of some characters of far away days. If you imagine "Mongols" who left their wives and children and property in Mongolian steppes, alone, (only lazy, extremely stupid enemy would not come and take all this in their absence. They a going to the west. All available men, about 200 000 (optimistic estimate), each with extra horse, or two. What happens with steppe? It is just worn and eaten out. They meet some other tribes, which - nothing to do - join them. And food is available only to the first several thousands - the rest have to swallow dust and mud. How far could they get? Or they should spread over vast territories - practically unhabited. Where is ominous army=orda? Leave this fantsy to the followers of Tolkien and modern historians. Snowball effect was lethal for any army and even modern army.
- Horse archers were the striking force of those days armies. The better archers you have - the more probability to make someone else feed the crows. Archers are like multiple rocket launchers of our days. And you are right absolutely - horses cannot take fortified objects. Infantry is needed. Where is nearest infantry? Yes, you are right! In settlements, villages, towns, cities. How to get it? To occupy, oppress, enslave, etc? How would you feel among an army of oppressed heavily armed ex-enemies? Correct. You have to negotiate and agree mutually benefitial cooperation! That is. Here we see so called "Mongolian" Army. And so on.
- China. Just conquered by "Mongol-Tartars". They could teach their oppressors something useful? Do make wall-beating machines and stone throuwing devices? You understand that it is not possible to take them from China to Russia. By train only. Special carriages, etc. You must build them at place. Chinese will build them? Well survivors of long way hardships and constant battle, starvation, deseases, cruel "Mongol-Tartars"... Where would they get wood logs? In taiga? Someone tried to build something considerable of raw logs? Drying needs years. And it would take practically no efforts for local guys to burn materials at any stage of production. And stones. You should bring them along, as well. Or use local workers to fulfil your order prepaid 100%. "Mongols" disappear - and what to do with all those stones? Russian army had such device readily available. They can be met in all chronicles - called "poroki". No need of foreign expertise. It nowaday, that practically everything is made in China.
- So, if you sombine steppe horsemen Armies (they were numerous - Golden, White, Blue, Brown, and so on) with economic resourses and armed forces of Russia - you will get the Great "Mongol" Army (alas, without Mongols) and no need for starving, freezing and building some fantastic devices.

[Riss Gong]

I believe that Batu Khan took Kiev on the 6th of December on St Nicholas Day in 1240. In Australia, that would be the middle of summer, but in the northern hemisphere it would be winter.

In 1238, the Mongol army had taken Vladimir on February the 8th.

The only explanation of these events is that these were internal clashes and "restauration of constituional order" of those days. So called "Mongol-Tartar" Army had nearby bases, nutrition, wall-breaking devices, poroki, infantry in abundance. According to chronicles suffered most of all southern regions of Russia. Why? Politics... Dynasty or rights of succession? Who knows. The authors also were paid by this or that side.
Vladimir - well Vladimir-Souzdal Zemlya had several hundred towns. Loss of one - even capital meant nothing to the country as a whole. This looks like removing some enemies before starting to the West.
About composite bow in the frost. I do not wont to risk my only natural bow. In a couple of years, if everything goes well, I will have a couple more comparable bows. I may sacrifice one, if it is still necessary. But now, when I try to shoot outdoors, I feel that in several minutes the bow becomes more slow.

[jbl]

I think the reason why you see many cities fell during the winter to the Mongols has much to do with their mobility IMPROVING during the winter because the rivers, swamps, and marshes were frozen. This made it easier for a "horse" army to travel. I also believe it shows that the cold did not adversly effect the composite bow. Would it be "stiffer" in the winter and need to be acclimated to the weather? Yes just like any living thing.

[Dusan]

i litlle chating in russian sites and find one interestinf petroglif. (sorry again for mi english. I will try translate.)




This petroglifs was found in the rocks near the Ienisej -Tura river- Krasnoiarsk region. Its dating about 300-200 b.c. In this region known old fables about "horse people" archers.This fable says that her live people who was from knee to the head man but from knee down like horse legs vith fure , and runing in snow likw horse.

Behind this fantasy fable can be a real skier kamus archer who have glued in ski "kamus" .
Kamus is skin from elk or moose leg. Fur from leg was very strong. If you glued this skin in ski vith right fur orientation , you can walk or skiing , but dont slide back.

Interesting petroglif show us composite like bow use very efektivly in winter.