ADVANTAGES OF DRAWING BEYOND EAR, OVER DRAWING TO MOUTH.

[Alan Flashing]

Isn't there a fable about a Nordic skier/archer called Uller?
Alan

[Dusan]

If he sking in Ienisei river .

But you must know that all north european nations (vikings , germans, ...) was from asia . Isn it ?

[Stephen Selby]

I remember this about steppe ponies (re. Riss Kong's comment): They'll take you anywhere in freezing weather; but if they get into a snow drift and can't move their legs freely, you have to beat them cruelly to stop then lying down and giving up the ghost.

That's got rather far from freezing bows. In Ulaanbaatar, they say that the risk to bows in extreme cold is drying out, not freezing (re. Adam's comment.) So they store their bows in the (frozen) meat safe during the winter months.

[jsachers]

About German "tribes". Let's state theises first. Maybe som wouldn't need any arguments.
- Germans were not "tribes". It was well organized army sent to inhabit sparcely populated areas or Europe.

Sent? By whom?
"Germans" is a term coined by Roman writers like Julius Caesar to describe certain tribes living east of the river Rhine whose culture differed markedly from the (well known) Celts in the west. They themselves did not consider themselves to be "Germans" but rather Suebes, Alamans, Herules etc. Those were comparatively small groups of people from different origins gathering "under the banner" of charismatic leaders. In the course of the centuries (from the middle of the 1st millenium BC to ca. the 4th century AD) these tribes mixed, separated, new ones developed, and each had its own distinct culture, rituals, burial rites, and even language, although they all spoke variants belonging to the Germanic grop of languages, as opposed to the Celtic or Slavic groups.

- Origin of these "tribes"? As they came from Russia, they lived in close contact with other "tribes" or Ords (Hords as written currently), i.e. Armies, which actively produced and constantly improved composite bows. So Germans have to live with tightly closed eyes and tied hands not to produce commonly available weapon.

The Germanic peoples came from Russia? Maybe you should publish that thesis and become famous.
On the other hand, the scientific world wants facts and proof ?

- One more point about tactics: axes, swords, spears, and other white weapons, are designed for show offs at courts, for settling down individual disputes, well maybe to eventually cleanup a battlefield. I talked to may martial art specialist. They all agree, that the only weapon designed for war was bow and arrow. The first weapon of samurais was yumi, only centuries later swords appeared. Do not mistify yourself - the only weapon capable to win a war in the past was bow. !

The Greek Hoplites might be interested to hear that they couldn't have won the battles they won against the Persian archers with their lances, swords and shields. And the English eventually lost the Hundred Years War ?

But anyway, I feel we have strayed far enough from the topic of this thread which was about the draw, not about battle tactics or the like. And after all, this is the Asian Traditional Archery Research Network forum -?not the place to discuss the origins of the Germanic peoples. I for one will let the matter rest there and return to my "fantasy authors" like Tacitus, Caesar, Vegetius, Gregor of Tours, Isidor of Sevilla, Widukind of Corvey, and others. And to the archaeological finds and sources.

[jsachers]

Isn't there a fable about a Nordic skier/archer called Uller?
Alan

There is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ullr

[Dusan]

Thank you - interesting . Its demonstrate to me , that same source kulture and nation this people.
In another point its say more about your and Riss thema. I mean that here is no dubt about origin all germans tribs.

Litlle about term "german" . You are right about diferent tribes like Suebes , Alaman , Herules and some diferences between his language. But i mean that language dif. was no so big. Maybe like between Slaws lanuage. Vithout big problems we understand eych other to this days. Term "german" to me is very charakteristic for this people. If i dont mistake Man is germanic word - use in anglosas language too. Her is too uceful word vith interesting history - because this is oldest variation for "man" and in same time signify male penis- what is old mans simbol... Ispecialy in hunters -salvage people.
You can found this word in this tribe names for ex.- HER ules, Ala MAN...

In many places in Europe stay big rocks like statue and people meaning about his misteriouz simbolizm. His name is MANHIR, or dolMAN its say all...
But you are right thisis out of topic .

[Riss Gong]

Sorry, very busy now, will reply asap.
For now: wasser=water=voda
essen=eat=est'
and so on.

[mongolianarcher]

Ravenbows,
I can answer your question, Jaap Koppedrayer puts urushi on his hornbows, and they can resist total immersion in water, so if that helps.... talk to him.

[Dusan]

Hm... I interesting about urushi some time ago . Urushi have super charakteristic , but his flexibility is lower than we need.

[ravenbows]

Mongolarcher..........I will check it out. Perhaps get a hold of Mr. Kopperdrayer.

[Bede]

I doubt this is the place to discuss linguistics or history. We have gone a long way from the topic.

If you look up a linguistics textbook, you will find that while there are common origins to many words in Indo-European languages, like English, German, Norwegian and Russian, the process is not as simple as it first seems. There is little in common with the Altaic languages like Turkish and Mongolian, but there are borrowing and coincidental sounds to explain other things like the word in English, horde, which was adopted from the Mongol usage which ultimately comes from a Turkish word. Order (Eng.) and ordnung (Ger.) are Indo-European words of completely different origin for the Turkish word. "Man" is a common three letter word that occurs independently in many unrelated languages. Menhir comes from the Breton Men = stone and Hir = long. Dolmen comes from Cornish where it means hole of a stone. These are two examples of Indo-European languages that are related (Cornish and Breton were to Celtic languages spoken on opposite sides of the English Channel) and which had a similar word for stone (men) but did not use it for the same concept as English or German man.

The main evidence of the details of the Mongol invasion of Russia under Batu comes from Russian and Middle Eastern histories. I mentioned two towns that were destroyed, but of course there were many more. Since I am not a history teacher and this is not a linguistic forum, I will leave it to you to find out more if you wish.

[Riss Gong]

That's got rather far from freezing bows. In Ulaanbaatar, they say that the risk to bows in extreme cold is drying out, not freezing (re. Adam's comment.) So they store their bows in the (frozen) meat safe during the winter months.

Yes, I meant that they store thier bows in the same yurta (thick felt tent) where they store meat in winter. But it is much warmer inside than outside. And they store their bows there till spring (if I am not misinformed).

[Dusan]

Bede you are right. This is out of topic . Maybe no in Atarnet. But we here often talked about histori . Language and his changes is most helpful how we can research history.Especialy very old history , because we hevnt nothing more.Your position coresponding vith oficial tudays teori.

In "indo europeans " language group , i see 30-50% slavs "satem"source introdution to asiatic hunters "kentum" language.Maybe more.

If you believe that sombody make very hardly big stone statue - clearly looks like religious thing- and next call him only " big -or long stone" ... its your choice. We todays know that all over the world hunters -Homo sapiens -tribes (and Celts was very tipical example migrated from Afrika in 3000 b.c.) have most important god - falus.

Maybe you dont know about this , but all pillars construct in oficial buildings to this days was from oldest tousand years - big falus. Only from grekoroman era was latent in artistic simbolism .And we call him - "big pillar"... History is somtime funny.

[Riss Gong]

About horn bow and winter: I was so stupid to continue testing my bow outside. At -7Centigrades it works normally. And I do not expose it to frost for the time longer than needed to shoot 7 arrows, collect them and shoot 7 arrows one more time. Below -10Centigrades the efficiency of the bow starts to decline. And I am afraid, this curve is not sweep, it grows more and more steep. The lower temperature - the faster drop down. It is up to you to make your opinion - what does it mean.

The hornbow, mine bow at least, is sealed completely. Layers of sinew glue, goat skin (very thin one), again grounding with sinew glue, some gluten lacquer, covered with painting and lacquered again. (Now I washed off the decorative painting, want to draw something better, left only grounding (priming) and the bow became faster and obviously with less poundage.) So it cannot loose considerable amount of moisture under any conditions. Water and ambient pressure are sealed inside. If you do not brake the sealing coating, it will keep modern water and air for ages (theoretically). If you take it to open outer space it will explode due to atmospheric pressure inside sealed inside. Biden or not biden water, I guess it freezes sooner or later. Cow carcasses are frozen to stone state at -18 Centigrades, meat and sinew as well. And this temperature is considered normal, even warm in Siberia, Urals and the most part of Central Russia

To Dusan:
"Interesting petroglif show us composite like bow use very efektivly in winter.. "
Thank you for your help. If you see my post you will see that I wrote, that in winter should be used bows different from Mong horn bows. Our Northern peoples do not use horn but make composites of different sorts of wood and other stuff. The same was in Northern parts of Russia, in Finland and others. They contained much less sinew and practically no animal products. That are the bows you seen on the petroglifs. If I get more info on such bow I will place it somewhere at this forum.

And for the time being:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQF6uhXNBZM

[Dusan]

Riss , good looking "light" bow. You are first or second archer ? Short draw lenght.

About Siberian , Finland or "slaws" bows from wood composites we know . If sinew working in this bows - why dont in horn bows ? This bows was gluening vith animal glue, like hornbows , most has sinew gluening lyer like hornbows.( In deep north was sinew only binding.)

You think that material who have problem vith cold wether was horn ?