ADVANTAGES OF DRAWING BEYOND EAR, OVER DRAWING TO MOUTH.

[PjSingh]

Dusan,
I believe you to be correct in assuming that horn does not work in winter.
My friends bow blew up in winter.This is an all horn bow,the bow was shooting 240 fps@ 28 inches of draw and it was an 75 # bow.the arrow arc in summer at 40 yards was 5 inches and in winter was almost 2.5 feet at the same distance.and this was in a relatively mild ohio winter.

[Riss Gong]

Dusan,
I believe you to be correct in assuming that horn does not work in winter.
My friends bow blew up in winter.This is an all horn bow,the bow was shooting 240 fps@ 28 inches of draw and it was an 75 # bow.the arrow arc in summer at 40 yards was 5 inches and in winter was almost 2.5 feet at the same distance.and this was in a relatively mild ohio winter.

That is! What I tried to state, well, during previous week.
Thank you.
Much help.
Need not to break mine to proove obvious.

[Riss Gong]

Riss , good looking "light" bow. You are first or second archer ? Short draw lenght.

You think that material who have problem vith cold wether was horn ?

I'm the second shooter.
Draw lenght is short because I am just started to train the bow to shoot. It is brand new. Now it is possible to draw farther.
What do you mean by "light" bow? Poundage? How much is it you think?

About northern bows: sinew, as it might be, was used in less amount, than in hornbows. Possibly it was more dry. And horn really becomes too fragile under cold weather. I guess that -18 Centigrades (any refrigerator produces such cold in freezing chamber. Any one can test a peace of horn plate - freeze it and try to bend...).
And see previous message.

[Hermitking]

This is news to me about horn's fagility in cold.

I was under the impression that Mongols were adapted to cold dry climate and their bows were like them, adapted. Perhaps having the bow sheathed against the hot body of a working horse kept the bow slightly warmer and mitigated the cold/horn issue.

Maybe the cold issue is the reason why later Mongol bows were longer than the early ones. As they became more of an organized military culture, the bow needed to be ready at all times in case of rapid mobization, whereas in subsistence days they used their bows in certian seasons and refrained in cold seasons if possible.

Is there a difference in cold resistence between ibex horn and water buffalo horn?

[ravenbows]

This is news to me about horn's fagility in cold.

I was under the impression that Mongols were adapted to cold dry climate and their bows were like them, adapted. Perhaps having the bow sheathed against the hot body of a working horse kept the bow slightly warmer and mitigated the cold/horn issue.

Maybe the cold issue is the reason why later Mongol bows were longer than the early ones. As they became more of an organized military culture, the bow needed to be ready at all times in case of rapid mobization, whereas in subsistence days they used their bows in certian seasons and refrained in cold seasons if possible.

Is there a difference in cold resistence between ibex horn and water buffalo horn?

Hermit,
You would be a good one based on your location to give us insights into this topic. What has been your experience?

Are you able to hunt with the bows that you make in that climate?


What a great point! I was not aware that the length of bows had changed. Subsistinence does require a different set of skills than warfare.

[KenH]

This brings up something I've wondered about.

All sorts of builders today are using horn from Water Buffalo, which are basically a warm climate animal. Is it actually "written" that the Mongols, or Scythians for example, who definitely did not come from warm climates used horn from Water Buffalo in making their bows? Did the Persians use Ibex or Mountain Sheep horn instead? Or does the archeological record just show "horn" and not from what species of animal?? I'm sure there are huge differences between the horn of Ibex, Mountain Sheep of several species, goats and other horned (not antlered) animals across the huge expanse of Asia.

Would the Mongols, Chinese etc have used a wide variety of horn depending on local availability? I should think so. Needless to say, who was using what kind of horn under which climatological conditions would greatly affect bow stability, strength and lifespan.

[Hermitking]

Ravenbows, "Are you able to hunt with the bows that you make in that climate?"

Frankly I don't shoot any bow when it gets too cold to grasp the string. At about 20-30 below F. pulling a bowstring becomes VERY unpleasant, and shooting with a big beaver fur mit just doesn't work. I would be willing to shoot in such temps a few shots at best and only in extreem need.

Above zero temps don't seem to affect the wood bellied sinew bows all that much, but how horn holds up is unknown to me since I never used my horn bow in alaska (it was damaged in storage by a leaky roof before I moved here). I have seen an artical about a hunter using an osage orange bow in the far northern arctic on a guided hunt for musk ox. He was worried about his bow breaking but it held up good and killed the beast in one shot.

You also mentioned, "I was not aware that the length of bows had changed." Yep, it seems as though the Mongolians used a slightly shorter bow in the early days, before later conquests. Some have suggested that the present form of the mongolian bow is derived from the larger Chinese bows such as used by the Manchu. Warfare dictated that they needed armor peircing power. That in combination with the cold effecting horn durability may have dictated longer less strained bow designs, shooting heavier arrows.

I have seen several silk paintings that depict mongols using a bow that was closer to 55" and the crimean tartar bows were often in the low 60's.

KenH also specualtes about the differences in horn quality per climate situations. I remembre that Charles Grayson had some eskimo bows that were made of sections of horn pinned and tied together with a wood core and cable backing. What kind of horn it was I know not. But musk ox was available to them. I think even sections of bone were used in a similar manner. Perhaps horn can work if strained to a lesser arc.

It just seems odd to think of Mongolians using horn bows, when horn is not durable in cold climate. The only conclusion I can draw is that ibex mus tbe different than water buffalo.

[Hermitking]

Since we are talking about draw length and it has led into the discussion of changing bow length for cold climate durability, I thought I would point out that the Turkish bow may have been much different in earlier days.

I have a xerox printout of a very accurate painting of a Turkish Sultan. I can't remember thetime period, bu tit clearly depicts him using a bow that looks to me like a Crimean Tartar bow about 60-64 inches long, drawing all the way back to the ear.

The picture is highly realistic in the bodily proportions and shooting posture and the bow is very detailed in its proportions. For that reason I don't think it is a charicature of the real thing. Anyway, the bow has a pretty obvious reflex at the handle like most Mongolian bows I have seen. We generally see only the very short Turkish bows with a handle bulb being the farthest forward portion of the bow, rather than a reflexed handle. So this picture I have is an oddity that suggests that other bow patterns were at least dabbled in, if not used in the military.

[jbl]

Hermit I think I have seen the same picture and would match what many writers have said regarding the evolution of the Turkish bow. Many believe the bows of the Ottoman Janniseries were large like the Tatar or Mongols and did not become smaller until after the "hay day" of the War bow.

[Dusan]

Now i work with ibex horn and european Muflon horn (i think it close to mountain goat ) . its VERY diference mechanical quality than water buf. horn.If its working dif. in cold weather now i cant say but we will see...
This is good point that if we try reconstructed old mongol bow , we must work vith ibex horn. Only this way give us more relevant data.

[Riss Gong]

Now i work with ibex horn and european Muflon horn (i think it close to mountain goat ) . its VERY diference mechanical quality than water buf. horn.If its working dif. in cold weather now i cant say but we will see...

I used to indian cow horn to be glued on the wooden base.
It holds the cold nice, but it becomes slow below -10 Centigrades.
Mountain sheep/goat horns were always main and beloved material for the Mongol/Buryat and Tungus/Manchu bows.
This horn works much better than water buffalo horn. It is far much better, do not even compare.

[Asafan]

I used to indian cow horn to be glued on the wooden base.
It holds the cold nice, but it becomes slow below -10 Centigrades.
Mountain sheep/goat horns were always main and beloved material for the Mongol/Buryat and Tungus/Manchu bows.
This horn works much better than water buffalo horn. It is far much better, do not even compare.

And of whose horns did bows ancient Russian bows in 10 century? In 13?

[Dusan]

I believe in 2 variation russians (composite) bows.
1 : is north stile bow vithout horn . this design is from east siberia to Finland in many variation.(north russia)
2 : is mongol /central asia hornbow predominantly vith Ibex - mountain goat horns. (kievska rus, Kosacs...)

Today we work predominantli vith water buff horns , becuse its most comon material(still its big problem buy a good one...) .
I dream abou ibex and mountain goat horns , but in central Europe its very dificult . This animals wasnt domesticate

[Ashbow]

I remembre that Charles Grayson had some eskimo bows that were made of sections of horn pinned and tied together with a wood core and cable backing. What kind of horn it was I know not.

Hermitking,
In the June/July 2007 issue of the ?Primitive Archer? magazine there is an article ?A Greenland Bow? by Charles Grayson. The bow covered in the article is made of two pieces of baleen ?stitched? together (no glue was used), sinew cable backing, no wooden core though.

[Bede]

The horn was small sections of musk ox horn.