Yanghai (Scythian) bow weight tested

[redhawk]

In R. Toelle- Kastenbein?s book the posted Scythian bows are more or less asymmetrically.
The findings I?ve seen are designed with a shorter but wider lower limb and a smaller but longer upper limb. This makes absolutely sense.

The book is focused on Greek archery, so it seems obvious that the posted bows are of Western Scythian origine. But I don?t think that there are significant differences.

R.Toelle- Kastenbein is referring to Greek sources about the capablities of Scythian bows shooting arrows in the 200- 220m- range. The farthest shot ever reported should have been about 540m.

Michael

[jack farrell]

Hermit; Scythians spoke a kind of dialect of Persian; they were a satrap of Persia. Their bow design became an archetype of early Persian bow design.

In the era of Daryus, it was a major design. This is what I mean about how we know so little about bow design but assume that artists of the period knew less.

Just wait till Bede gets back and you will get a long lesson on Scythian/Persian association.

Michael; In my experience, if one wants a balanced asymmetrical bow, the long limb must be the stronger, more robustly built. Is that not your experience?

[Kviljo]

The longer limb could be thicker, but would at the same time need to be narrower than the lower. The extra thickness would not really be noticable without a calliper.

[redhawk]

Jack, maybe you remember that the olon kurin-gol bow provoqued me to have a closer look at asymmetrical bow- designs. My bowyer- collegues are not to much interested in the fact, that the asymmetrical bow- design was much more common than we?ve thought of it. Many of them take it as a kind of voodoo or magic.
I asked mathematicians, artists, physicists about the subject and they found it very sense- making, if the longer upper limb bents more, the shorter lower limb is working as a kind of counter- balance. Maybe that?s what Kviljo is stating. I found out that asymmetrical bows have to be tillered in the same ratio as the ratio of the upper to the lower limb. So we have to tiller every limb for itself. Tillered like that asymmetrical bows seem to be unbreakable and store more energy than symmetrical bows. But efficiency seems to be the question.
I asked some kyudo- archers about the design of their bows and what they know about the construction and design and their experiences with them, they agree.
From a bowyers point of view it is very logical to make the shorter lower limb wide and strong and the upper longer limb narrow and more bending.

Michael

[jkekoni]

Wood is asymmetrical by nature.

Most trees are thicker and have heavier wood near the ground. Also the lower part is more curled on coppiced trees(I am thinking on hazel especially.) . I think coppiced trees are
generally good material for bows since they have long parts without branches, usually more so that "normally" grown.

This is not usually true if you use board or staves split from big trees.
(Both are very inconvinient without steel tools.)

Also the sorter lower limb will allign the handle more like pistol handle to arm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppicing

I found out that asymmetrical bows have to be tillered in the same ratio as the ratio of the upper to the lower limb.

Please explain "tillered in ratio".

[redhawk]

jkekoni, great thought of yours: wood is asymmetrical by nature.

Did you know the statement of Al Herrin, a Cherokee- bowyer and writer:
take care that the upper part of the tree is the upper limb of your bow.....otherwise you?ve to do a headstand when shooting ...
I hope I?m right, that Al Herrin is really the one who said that.

If the lower limb measures 55cm in length and the upper limb measures 90cm in length you?ll get a ratio of 55:90=0.61.
So when you brace the bow the ratio of the greatest distances between the string and the limbs should be the same.
F.e. thegreatest distance from the string to the lower limb is 6cm, so the greatest distance from the string to the upper limb should be 9.8cm.
6:9.8=0.61.
This is disputable( should we compare the working parts of the limbs only?), I?ve just begun to check the subject, but so you got the best efficiency.
This is Adam?s subeixi- bow thread. As a kind of side- thread we got the asymmetrical bow designs in general.
If we go on discussing asymmentry in bow- designs let?s open a new thread?

Michael

[Bede]

Very funny Jack.
Modern linguists think that the Scythians spoke an Iranian language based on the few recorded words and the names of the people recorded by Greek historians. I think there might have been a satrapy for a short time in Europe called Skudra or Scythia. In one of Darius' inscriptions he refers to the Saka Tigrakhauda or the "pointed hat " Saka.
Saka is the generic Old Persian word for Scythian nomads.

On Persepolis' walls were carved pictures of both Saka and Persian and Median troops equipped with the short bow in a gorytos and the Scythian akinakes short sword. These Persian reliefs always show the bow covered in the gorytos and it is not possible to see the details of the quiver part of the gorytos. However, the shape under the cover is of a recurved bow. The Persian infantry in the same reliefs have larger recurved bows without setback handles.

So again I agree with Jack that there was certainly an early connection between the Scythians and Persians.

[Stephen Selby]

The Saka, who are postulated as the makers of the Subeixi bows, are thought to have spoken the Tocharian language. Tocharian languages were Indo-Iranian. Tocharian B was a literary language ion the early silk route.

[Bede]

Stephen,
The latest I have seen on Tocharian suggests that proto-Tocharian was a type A Indo-European language (based on types of consonants present) which puts it outside the Indo-Iranian sub-group. The Yueh-chi are postulated on the possible basis of reconstruction of the contemporary pronunciation of the characters as Tocharians. The Sakas are thought, as you pointed, out to be Indo-Iranian speakers.

It is interesting to note that the other Type A language is proto-Anatolian, which is the ancestor of Hittite. This coincides with the early appearance of Caucasian looking bodies from Xinjiang in the very early periods.

This would then correspond to several linguistic layers, Tocharian, Saka/Iranian and Indic from traders and missionaries from the north west of India. Later Iranian languages like Sogdian were added to the list.

[Godehardt]

Adam, your Subeixi bow is great! As Michael wrote: We reconstructed the bow which was found 2006 in Olon Kurin Gol. There was no indication of horn at the inner side, the bow was only approximately 118 cm long, it had asymmetrical limbs (the relation of the upper to the lower limb was about 3 to 2). The reflex in the riser, the deflexes above and below the riser where the limbs started, and the recurves as well were by far not so extreme as in the Subeixi bow. The string seems to be fixed at the tips in the same way as with the modern horse boe by Samick. There was no indication of horn plates at the tips (however, Pozdnyakov shows in his paper on Scythian quivers that in some places such horn plates have been found). The whole bow was wrapped in birch bark. Unfortunately, during the excavation this bark has been taken off the bow. However, we know from the reports that the bark was wrapped in strips horicontally around the bow over its whole length. So it worked probably also as a backing.
Our own experiments showed that this short bow from Olon Kurin Gol together with the short arrows found in the same grave had only a very moderate draw weight and the draw length was probably not beyond 21 or 22 inches. We made x-rays for one of the bows after using it without wrapping, but with one layer of sinew backing. The bow showed some severe damage inside its construction. Therefore we wrapped it tightly with silk thread after adding ssome silk tissue as an additional backing over the sinew backing. Then Michael Kieweg and I tested the bow at a draw length of 20 inches (measured from the inside of the riser, whicht means approximately 21 inches from the outside of the riser to the string. The arrow speed was about 110 ft per second, the bow weight was about 22 lbs, and the bow survived. So we believe that the wrapping is very essential for this type of bow, and this bow was by no means a war bow. You can hunt small game like rabbits with it! Some of the arrows found in the grave support this idea, they had blunts and no sharp tips.
Best regards, Erhard

[Adam Karpowicz]

Hello Erhard, good to hear from you again. The internal damage could have weakened your replica from the start for the reduced draw weight. On the other hand one can not expect a lot of (useable) weight from a short all wood bow. Depending on the conditions in the ground, the curvature of the limb tips could be reduced as well.

Is there any chance you could send me pictures of the original find (not the replica)? And exact measurements of thickness and width of limbs of the original bow? I could try to model it on a computer to get an idea of the weight. Even pictures with a scale attached would be good. If copyrighted, plese send to my email address.

Adam

[TZH]

Very funny Jack.
Modern linguists think that the Scythians spoke an Iranian language based on the few recorded words and the names of the people recorded by Greek historians. I think there might have been a satrapy for a short time in Europe called Skudra or Scythia. In one of Darius' inscriptions he refers to the Saka Tigrakhauda or the "pointed hat " Saka.
Saka is the generic Old Persian word for Scythian nomads.

On Persepolis' walls were carved pictures of both Saka and Persian and Median troops equipped with the short bow in a gorytos and the Scythian akinakes short sword. These Persian reliefs always show the bow covered in the gorytos and it is not possible to see the details of the quiver part of the gorytos. However, the shape under the cover is of a recurved bow. The Persian infantry in the same reliefs have larger recurved bows without setback handles.

So again I agree with Jack that there was certainly an early connection between the Scythians and Persians.

I agree. It is like we would call all the indians of the Greath Plain sioux.

TZH

[TZH]

Hello

Erhard! Your Olon Kuril Gol replicas became a sinew backing?? The original had laminated (4 pieces of wood) arms, hadn't it?

VG:

Zolt

[Godehardt]

Zoltan,
yes, one layer of sinew was added. However, due to problems with the glue lines between the wooden slats, there was an additional layer of silk fabric glued to the back and then the whole bow wrapped with silk thread to prevent the glue lines to open. Then we tried to use the bow. The base of this bow had been made by redhawk.
Best regards
Erhard

[TZH]

Godehard, thank you!

Zolt