350 lbs Composite-Recurve Bow

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Stephen Selby
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Post by Stephen Selby » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:52 am

Ok. All is now clear. I had missed some parts of the post. Mea culpa. :oops:

If your objective is to study the outcome of shooting from a crossbow with 350 lbs draw-weight, I suggest that you avoid the expense and fragility of a horn/sinew composite. You would be paying (or asking someone to provide for free) a valuable item that is quite likely to break during your experiments.

I suggest we ask other experts on the forum to suggest a feasible alternative for getting the same outcome at less cost. Fiber and carbon are both hi-tech and expensive. Maybe a self bow would do the trick - there are articles (not on ATARN) about a 200lb self longbow. I suspect that you could make a bamboo leaf spring (or even steel?) that could get up to 350lbs without too much cost.

Or there are alternative designs, like the one below :wink:
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Bede
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Post by Bede » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:36 am

Stephen wrote:
Crossbow prods don't really need to be pulled back far: almost universally the length of stock was equal to the distance between the prod tips and the prod was mounted at the end of the stock. That's not much of a draw and in later times, a self wood prod or bamboo leaf spring prod worked fine.
There are a few assumptions here that need to be assessed.

Crossbow lathes are bows and subject to the same physics as hand bows. The longer the power stroke a bow has, the more energy it can impart to an arrow. European crossbows went down a strange developmental path with shorter draw lengths and more massive bows to compensate for the reduced power stroke.

The length of the stock in the 1:1 ratio proposed is relative. Longer bows would end up with longer stocks. Qin crossbows, the immediate predecessors of Han crossbows, have quite large bows. Han pottery models of watch towers have model crossbowmen with substantial lathes with curvatures that imply they were composite.

Later crossbows are often considered to have been inferior and technical information suggests that they also used weaker and less sophisticated locks. Ming texts describe crossbows with ranges that are much shorter than previous dynasties. The large bronze and iron arrowheads used in the Qin and Han would have hardly travelled far if used in later crossbows. In fact, the military encyclopaedias show poison to have been used in the later dynasties which would have been unnecessary with some of the Qin and Han weapons.

This leaves the pottery figure to be explained. There are Han Dynasty reliefs in tombs showing small bows and crossbows being used to shoot birds in trees. It is possible the figure represents a hunter. There is good reason to believe that crossbows were common weapons and there is no reason to think that hunting and civilian bows would not have been of a lesser standard than the military weapons. You don't need a bazooka to shoot a turkey.

Regarding the multi-bow siege crossbow, McEwen made a replica of one of these using self bows. I think with the complex string path he ended up with a 42 inch draw. He made the two rear bows 40 pounds draw weight at 14 inches and the front bow as 20 pounds. This created a machine with a 100 pound draw weight at 42 inches. McEwen calculated the relative stored energies of a straight bow of 100 pounds at 14 inches, the experimental bow and a projected reproduction with composite bows. The two actual comparisons show a much greater stored energy for the multi-bow machine because of the long draw. The article is in Vol. 28 of the Journal of the Society of Archer-Antiquaries.
Bede
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Kviljo
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Post by Kviljo » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:46 pm

A wooden prod would have to be rather huge to store 350#. The yew prod on the picture below was drawing 100# when it was just made. It is probably drawing around 80 now after a few years not having been unstrung.

It's thickness is about the maximum of what it's length and draw lenght will allow (as I have found by breaking a few that was slightly thicker). A 350# version of the same length and draw length would have to be 3,5 times as wide as this one. (about 15cm wide at the middle) It might work for giving a few indications of the power of such a weapon, but I doub't it would have any historical reference. Not even in Asia :wink:

Image


As for the original purpose of the topic, I think the answer is much more easily found in the litterature. "The book of the crossbow" by Ralph Payne Gallwey (which I probably misspelled) could perhaps be a good start? I think he wrote of some tests of a steel 1200# crossbow, at least.
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Bede
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Post by Bede » Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:42 am

Payne-Gallwey definitely discusses heavy crossbows. There are also good German and Dutch references. Apparently, some traditional Italian crossbow societies use steel bows that have been measured in excess of 2,000 pounds.

Short wooden bows are not a good way to develop extra heavy crossbows. Even with composite bows, the construction is not easy. As the bows get thicker, any flaws in building it become more likely to cause failure. Modern Korean crossbow builders had scaled up hand bows rather than trying to use the form of traditional crossbow laths. The highly reflexed and thick bows in the Military Museum at Seoul are not easy to reproduce.
Bede
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Zoran Pavlovic
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Post by Zoran Pavlovic » Tue May 04, 2010 12:50 pm

The AZN, I didn't understand one thing, do you need some exact replica? You didn't precise what kind of crossbow,classical mediaeval European or some ''siege machine''.

I am sure, as you said that you have the time for hobby, you could do some research, or visit some museum and to explore. I don't know how about hornbow as part of crossbow, but you can do experiment with wood/steel bows.I assumed ATARN is the place for traditional archery,making and exploration traditional materials and equipiment and i hope it will be same in the future, without ''space NASA stuff''.
All you have to do is to find some good,best traditional pattern and work on it. As first time bowyer will break some of the bows,doing a lot of mistakes it is same in exploration of future crossbowmaker.
I know a guy from California who makes his crossbows(for SCA purposes) but i should ask him about his possibilities.

Also i am sending one picture from Military museum in Belgrade, crossbow with a wood/steel as combination for the bow.It is not recurved one but you can try. Am not sure horn/wood combination could stand 350lb. Sorry if i didn't understand what was your purpose.
Greets and God bless you all
Zoran
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Bede
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Post by Bede » Wed May 05, 2010 12:00 pm

Zoran,
The European horn/wood/sinew composite crossbows were very strong. I would not be surprised at bows well over 500 pounds. The design criteria in Europe required a short draw and the result was an escalation in bow weight. The adoption of steel bows for cross bows was probably for convenience rather than because they could not make horn bows over 1,000 pounds.
Bede
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