comments on my form

Justin Ma · Post by **Justin Ma** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 8:01 pm

Hi guys,

I'm looking for feedback on my form. I'm shooting Chinese style (or at least I think I am).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9-n6aG6hMQ

Target at 18 m. (You can see the result of this round below.)
1st shot --- string scraped my face

2nd shot --- landed wide right
3rd, 4th shot --- landed near 1st shot

I'm trying my best to just "let the string go" without jerking back, but I notice the draw hand index finger flicks to the right during the release anyway. Dunno whether that's natural or whether I need to work harder at relaxing the draw hand.

Justin

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:19 pm

Justin,
I am not commenting on how "Chinese" your shooting is, but I can make some observations on how your hands are behaving.

Your drawing hand has a good conformation. It looks to me as if you are pushing the tip of the thumb ring against the proximal segment of the middle finger rather than against the middle segment. This could be just an illusion caused by the angle of the pictures.

In some shots, it seems that you are pushing the arrow against the cheek. The skin is indented. This is too much pressure and can cause arrow flight problems. The shaft should only touch the face not press against it.

I am guessing with the bow hand you are using the Manchu style with the curve of flesh between the bases of the thumb and index fingers pushing against the belly of the grip while the lower three fingers hold the bow firmly. Your forearm and elbow are properly extended.

Most of the follow through, good or bad, in the drawing hand is happening after the arrow is well on its way. This should not affect your shots unless it reflects something happening earlier in the shot.

The tension in your back should make your drawing hand move backward as you release rather than consciously throwing your hand back. It is difficult to tell from the video, but I cannot see any creep so I doubt that is a problem.

There is a problem with the arrow occasionally pressing too much against the face. I think the thumb ring may a bit too thick at the tip or maybe too long. I imagine that the position of your shoulders is a compensation for shooting at 18 metres. You can achieve the same result by keeping the elbows and shoulders aligned and tilting your body at the waist.

Justin Ma · Post by **Justin Ma** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:44 pm

Thanks, I'll pay special attention to those things the next time I practice.

Bede wrote:Your drawing hand has a good conformation. It looks to me as if you are pushing the tip of the thumb ring against the proximal segment of the middle finger rather than against the middle segment. This could be just an illusion caused by the angle of the pictures.

You're right, I'm actually pressing my thumb against my middle finger's proximal joint instead of my middle finger's middle segment. I guess pressing the thumb tip against the middle finger's middle segment will make it less likely for the index finger's knuckle to interfere with the arrow nock?

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:59 am

Mostly good. Here are some suggestions:

1. You are holding the bow at the centre of the grip. If the bow is made in the normal way, it is designed to be gripped above centre.
2. You are pointing your bow-hand index finger at the target. I wrap my finger around the grip and try to stretch out the first joint if the thumb towards the target.
3. Immediately after the release you arrest your draw hand. Then you throw it back as an afterthought. My suggestion: release using back muscle tension and bring your draw am back in to your sides without throwing back.

I can't see your waist or feet. I don't know if there are problems there.

S

Justin Ma · Post by **Justin Ma** » Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:37 am

Thanks for those suggestions. Item (1) especially answers a lingering question I had at the back of my mind.

I happen to have a small set of shorter arrows I can try with (2). Then I'd have to decide whether I want to shorten the 37" arrows you saw in the video.

Justin Ma · Post by **Justin Ma** » Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:58 am

Still a work in progress. but I did incorporate changes to my anchor point, my draw hand follow-through, and resting the arrow above the center of the grip. I'm also using a leather thumb guard I made in the morning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ivp1rWzd-S8

The bow is spinning faster now, but I don't know whether it was because the leather thumb guard is giving me a faster release or because I'm resting the arrow above center.

More importantly, my shots have stopped veering to the right.

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:00 am

Good progress. After completing the shot, both the bow hand and the draw hand come back to your sides (not just the draw hand.) If you don't move in unison, your horse may veer to one side.
The rotation of the bow following release is a Japanese preoccupation. It's not worth focussing on as it has no practical purpose. If the arrow's gone, it's gone.
The levelling of the bow before the shot was a Chinese practice in the Tang Dynasty - take it or leave it.

Justin Ma · Post by **Justin Ma** » Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:42 am

Stephen Selby wrote:The rotation of the bow following release is a Japanese preoccupation. It's not worth focussing on as it has no practical purpose. If the arrow's gone, it's gone.

Hmm, interesting... I guess I thought bow rotation was part of the Chinese infantry or ceremonial archery canon (e.g., your CTAS demo, 2:40 of http://ori.hangzhou.com.cn/ornews/conte ... 295004.htm ). But I can see how that's impractical for cavalry.

Stephen Selby wrote:The levelling of the bow before the shot was a Chinese practice in the Tang Dynasty - take it or leave it.

It's also interesting that you bring this up. Towards the end of practice, I actually had a pretty good round when I drew the bow with the arrow at shoulder level or pointing forward-down. I was thinking of working on that some more, since it's a more direct approach (and would avoiding scaring the horse by raising the arms up).

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:56 am

Yes, I demonstrate it. But I wanted to give some comment behind it, because it's not necessary to copy what I do exactly. I wanted to convey that it is a 'take it or leave it element'. It is not mentioned after the Song dynasty and I think that Qi Jiguang and his followers disapproved of it.

Justin Ma · Post by **Justin Ma** » Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:03 am

Ah, so I actually learned the "relaxed hand = spinning" from someone else. But if I understand correctly, this is one of the differences between Wang Ju's embellished style vs. Qi Jiguang's direct style.

But yeah, it's a dilemma. When I perform the spinning, people say "oh that looks like Kyudo," and I end up explaining how Tang ceremonial archery influenced Kyudo. Sigh... I'd like to avoid the comparison if possible, heh.

Let me give the non-spinning a good practice...

Justin Ma · Post by **Justin Ma** » Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:05 pm

This is the latest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqhYQ49QgwA . The first two shots grouped together, but the last shot landed a little high.

I think I'm starting to get a better feel for differentiating a clean-feeling release (that makes the shot stay centered) from a dirty, high-friction release (that makes the shot veer up/right). The margin of error for my draw hand/arm feels pretty small, but w/ practice I hope I can make it consistent.

I hope the stancework is ok. Maybe I should try different variations to simulate being on horseback.

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:36 am

Much softer release now. Feet look about right. Get someone to look at the angle of your arrow at the grip. It still looks as if your hand on the grip is a bit too low.

Justin Ma · Post by **Justin Ma** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:12 am

Stephen Selby wrote:Much softer release now. Feet look about right. Get someone to look at the angle of your arrow at the grip. It still looks as if your hand on the grip is a bit too low.

Aye, thanks.

It does look like the arrow is not completely perpendicular with the string at pre-draw --- my hand being a little low on the grip causes the arrow to point slightly downward.

Fwiw, I don't use a nocking point on my string, thinking it would be more hardcore. I didn't recall any mention of nocking points in the references, so I figured it was more traditional to leave them off. If this is indeed the case, I will have to drill myself to keep the arrow perpendicular with the string at pre-draw.

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:56 am

What you want to avoid is the arrow pointing up. Down a bit is not a problem. I still think you need to have the top of your hand near the top of the grip - not in the centre.

jiao · Post by **jiao** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:02 pm

can we get help form more Modern science and technology?use more Sensor on Joint and Muscle amd eye and target and arrow to build a 3d movie show and studay, i see a movie show wushu by Modern science ,maybe they are Interested in archery, maybe it is a so easy we are not happy too easy

in fact i see lots give up Traditional archery