2 Serbian bows-''graphic'' reconstruction of bow shape by
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Dusan
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MupKo
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- Location: Novi Sad, Serbia
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Daniel T.
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What is Podolac cattle? Is this also called grey cattle? The horns look like horns I have seen that were from a species called grey cattle. I wanted to get a pair of these horns, but the people who had them would not give me any because they had to account for the horns and other body parts due to some BSE regulation. At least that is what they said.
I believe they would look great on a bow!
Daniel
I believe they would look great on a bow!
Daniel
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Zoran Pavlovic
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Yes Dusan, water buffalo still lives in southern part of Serbia specially in Kosovo and Metohija. Mirko gave some datas about first mention of buffalos in Serbia, also prince Lazar wore helmet with buffalo horns in the Battle of Kosovo 1389. between Serbian army and Ottoman army lead by sultan Murat I. Serbian patriarch Pajsije Janjevac died after attack of furious w.buffalo/bivol back in 1647.Dusan wrote:Oup, thats wonderfull news ! I know about w.bufalos in south /Serbia, Italia, Romania, Bulgaria.../ 100 and more years ago , but i dont think that stil live i this countrys. 100 years ago here in Slovakia was many same long horn cattles. Now i know only about fue animals in Hungaria .
Water buffalos in this part of Europe are similar to those ones in Iran having shorter horns than those ones in Korea,China, Philippines,Vietnam but enough for composite bows shorter form as it was in mediaeval Serbia (110-115cm nock to nock strung). I use my theory of ram's horn of autochtonous breeds from Serbia and Balkan to explain white colour at the belly if it is not silk, birch bark or bleached horn as decoration.
See the picture below, ancient breed of Balkan called Karakachanska ovca(sheep), ram has very big horns.
Bede,
Word buffalo has similar roots in all indo-european languages.
In Slavic languages and also Romanian it is: bivol (read beewohl) in all South Slavic languages or bivo/биво in some Serbian dialects, byvol in Slovakian, buvol in Polish.
In Germanic languages it is:buffalo
B?ffel (m.)
buffel
buffel
b?ffel
buffall
b?ffel
buffel
English,German, Dutch, Frisian, Norvegian,Swedish.
Mirko, you forgot Krakachanska sheep;-)
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serbianbow
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jack farrell
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Dusan
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If we talked about bufalos and catles in global vith touch of history, we must say that this animal was the oldest totem-idol- god - simbol or how we call him for maybe 90 % of old nomads and his next big kingdoms.( Greks Zeus, MinoTAURUS, ...) Like many historical debat about linguistic question - its controversary- but interesting about word TUREK- TURK - TURY- what is oldest slavic name for all asian nomads- because his totem-god.Evan in 9-10 cen. we call Pechenyeh, Kipchaks , and other tribes (next Hungarians) TURCI. Some very old texts where Celts we call "TURY" too.
Like we now this name have to this days big representat of this culture - TURKEY and his ancestors we cal TURCIC tribes... I dont know how word use turcic people for TUR - ( or Bufalo, Catle) who was the oldest name for no domesticate - wild big animal who live in all Europa to east azia.
Like we now this name have to this days big representat of this culture - TURKEY and his ancestors we cal TURCIC tribes... I dont know how word use turcic people for TUR - ( or Bufalo, Catle) who was the oldest name for no domesticate - wild big animal who live in all Europa to east azia.
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jack farrell
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Dusan; I am not disagreeing with you. But the peoples of Ashkalon were not Turkic, were not nomads. I am pointing out only that there were water buffalos in this area in the first millennium BCE. The city was most likely destroyed by Cimmerians from the Black sea area.
But for these representations of bows with white bellies, my thinking is that they were probably Ibex horn, which was common to the area until the 19 th or 20th centuries CE. The horns are large and the mountsin variety have only a single curve, not spiraled.
But for these representations of bows with white bellies, my thinking is that they were probably Ibex horn, which was common to the area until the 19 th or 20th centuries CE. The horns are large and the mountsin variety have only a single curve, not spiraled.
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Dusan
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Jack i agree vith you /mi post was litlle out- only answer in ligwistic ekvilibration ...) i think that most of old culture composites was from Altaj, Himalayas, Kaukaz... Ibex/or argali/. Not from diferent cow spieces.Water buf horn have extra diferent quality against other cow or Zebu, or longhorns.
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MupKo
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Yes Daniel, Podolac is same as (Hungarian) gray cattle. Name Podolac probably came from its region of origin-Podolija, but it also means-one in the lowland. In Balkan highlands cattle with very short horns was bred-Busha.
Observing about 15 bows from Serbian monasteries I found similar results like Zoran did:
Handle was set back
Bows were short (115-140cm)
Bow ears were short (10% of bow length)
It don't have sense but for me the closest design is Korean! I just want to share my impression.
I'll post more detail measurement result soon.
Observing about 15 bows from Serbian monasteries I found similar results like Zoran did:
Handle was set back
Bows were short (115-140cm)
Bow ears were short (10% of bow length)
It don't have sense but for me the closest design is Korean! I just want to share my impression.
I'll post more detail measurement result soon.
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Zoran Pavlovic
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- Location: Serbia
[quote="MupKo"]
Observing about 15 bows from Serbian monasteries I found similar results like Zoran did:
Handle was set back
Bows were short (115-140cm)
Bow ears were short (10% of bow length)
Mirko,
I started core for two bows, ash wooden core 100 cm lenght, ears 12 cm (10-12,5cm is usual dimension i measured with exceptions of some bows where ears are 18 cm), limbs- width 3,8 cm, 4mm thick,flex centered, ram's horn should be 4mm thick, deep curved handle portion should be 18 cm, hide glue, cattle tendons .
I am not in agreement with you that Serbian bows had similarity with Korean design, also, from my opinion mural painters were very precise and average strung bows lenght should be 110-115 cm.with some exceptions, maybe you think it was similar to Korean design 'cause there was no ridged section where the ears are spliced with limbs but i will try ridged section first, for security. It should be ''triple curved'' bow.
Puno pozdrava
Observing about 15 bows from Serbian monasteries I found similar results like Zoran did:
Handle was set back
Bows were short (115-140cm)
Bow ears were short (10% of bow length)
Mirko,
I started core for two bows, ash wooden core 100 cm lenght, ears 12 cm (10-12,5cm is usual dimension i measured with exceptions of some bows where ears are 18 cm), limbs- width 3,8 cm, 4mm thick,flex centered, ram's horn should be 4mm thick, deep curved handle portion should be 18 cm, hide glue, cattle tendons .
I am not in agreement with you that Serbian bows had similarity with Korean design, also, from my opinion mural painters were very precise and average strung bows lenght should be 110-115 cm.with some exceptions, maybe you think it was similar to Korean design 'cause there was no ridged section where the ears are spliced with limbs but i will try ridged section first, for security. It should be ''triple curved'' bow.
Puno pozdrava
serbianbow
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Lord Ruthven
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Well' guys, I'm back with a new photo. It is from Staro Nagorichane in modern day FYROM. The church was built by the serbian king Milutin on top of an older one in 1313. The frescoes hadn't been painted over ever since, so they date to 1313 too. Also there is the thomb of the bulgarian tsar Michail III Shishman.
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MupKo
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WOW!!! I have never seen that one!!! Great. Is that two finger draw? Better picture? On most frescoes saint warrior have bow in quiver or holds it in hands, but this is firs one I have seen with bow usage. Bows at full draw!!! Thank you!
Zoran, on bow length-maybe some bows were just 110-115, but... If you compare bow length with saint warrior's height, hip width or knee height, bows are 90-120cm. If you compare them with waist width, head size, shoulder width or arm length, bows are 130-150cm. Lower part of warriors body was painted larger, and upper smaller. You have noticed that for sure. This picture that Lord Ruthven posted suggest even larger bow! Why? In this situation BOW is in the center of attention. On others WARRIOR is main thing, bows are just part of his equipment. Here arches are without other arms and armor, they are present just as somebody who holds bow. On others bow is just something that warrior holds. That affected size. Probably.
I said that it looks like Korean because it was short with short ears and set back handle. I don't know much about detail bow construction. Just talking about shape.
Good luck with replicas!!!
Zoran, on bow length-maybe some bows were just 110-115, but... If you compare bow length with saint warrior's height, hip width or knee height, bows are 90-120cm. If you compare them with waist width, head size, shoulder width or arm length, bows are 130-150cm. Lower part of warriors body was painted larger, and upper smaller. You have noticed that for sure. This picture that Lord Ruthven posted suggest even larger bow! Why? In this situation BOW is in the center of attention. On others WARRIOR is main thing, bows are just part of his equipment. Here arches are without other arms and armor, they are present just as somebody who holds bow. On others bow is just something that warrior holds. That affected size. Probably.
I said that it looks like Korean because it was short with short ears and set back handle. I don't know much about detail bow construction. Just talking about shape.
Good luck with replicas!!!
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MupKo
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:46 pm
- Location: Novi Sad, Serbia
Determination of bow dimensions on Serbian medieval frescoes
Mirko Ivković, August 2010.
Weapons are commonly found on Christian frescoes. They are held by Christian martyrs? executioners, soldiers, angels and saint warriors. On frescoes in Serbian monasteries, executioners and angels prefer swords, soldiers spears and swords, and bows are (usually) reserved for saint warriors. Maybe 20-30% of saint warriors have bows. Sveti Dimitrije (st Demetrios), sveti Merkurije (st Mercurius) and sveti Prokopije (st Procopius) especially like archery.
Gavro ?krivanić measured saint warriors? height and bow length and comparing these two values concluded that ?Length of Serbian composite bow was 90 to 120 cm? (35.4 to 47.2 inches). (Oru?je u srednjovekovnoj Srbiji, Bosni i Dubrovniku, Beograd: Naučno delo, 1957.) Well, that?s short! 90 cm bow? Zoran Pavlović recently made more realistic estimate for two bows from Lesnovo monastery, 125-130 cm, and 110-115 cm for average bows (ATARNet discussion forum/Hardware/ 2 Serbian bows-''graphic'' reconstruction of bow shape by). I decide to make comprehensive study.
I found 15 pictures of saint archers? frescoes with visible enough bows and good enough resolution for measurements. 6 from Dečani, 3 from Lesnovo, 2 from Pećka Patrijar?ija and Markov manastir and 1 from Sveti Nikita and Veluće. Measurements were made in Inkscape, vector graphics editor program. Bows were measured tip to tip, along the string. If just half of bow was visible it was assumed that other half is of same length. If bow was in quiver it was assumed that quiver fits very good to bow, i.e. that bow tip is very close to the quiver tip. Body dimensions taken to compare with bow length and their assumed values were: height-180cm, face length (chin to hair)-20cm, shoulder width-50cm, waist width-40cm, hip width-40cm, waist to top of head distance-80cm, leg length-85cm, lower leg length-50cm, arm length-80cm, shoulder to elbow-40cm, elbow to fingertip-50cm. Also, arrow length was assumed to be 80cm, and closed arrow quiver length to be 85cm.
Not all body parts were visible on all pictures. 109 comparisons were made, 7 per bow on average.
Average bows' length when compared with different parameters:
Parameter.............Bow length (cm, in)
Waist width......................146......58
Face length......................135......53
Elbow to fingertip.............132......52
Shoulder width.................131......52
Waist to top of head........125......49
Quiver length...................121......47
Arrow length....................119......47
Leg length.......................117......46
Shoulder to elbow...........116......46
Arm length ......................115......45
Warrior?s height...............114......45
Lower leg length..............107......42
Hip width.........................103......41
Length for different bows (average for all comparisons for that bow)
Monastery................................Archer.............Bow length (cm, in)
Patriarchate of Peć..................St Procopius............153.......60
Marko?s monastery...................St Demetrios...........147.......58
Marko?s monastery...................Angel......................145.......57
Monastery of saint Nikita..........St Nikita..................142.......56
Lesnovo...................................St Mercurius............136.......54
Lesnovo...................................St Demetrios...........129.......51
Dečani.....................................St Eustatius.............123.......48
Dečani.....................................Unknown I...............121.......48
Dečani.....................................St Nestor.................117.......46
Dečani.....................................St Victor...................117.......46
Dečani.....................................St Mercurius ............116.......46
Patriarchate of Peć.................St Demetrios............113........44
Lesnovo..................................St Procopius.............112........44
Dečani.....................................Unknown II...............98........39
Veluće.....................................St Dejan....................97.........38
Average for all bows and all measurements is 124cm (49?). Most of bows are in 110-140cm range, and not 90-120 as previously described.
Mirko Ivković, August 2010.
Weapons are commonly found on Christian frescoes. They are held by Christian martyrs? executioners, soldiers, angels and saint warriors. On frescoes in Serbian monasteries, executioners and angels prefer swords, soldiers spears and swords, and bows are (usually) reserved for saint warriors. Maybe 20-30% of saint warriors have bows. Sveti Dimitrije (st Demetrios), sveti Merkurije (st Mercurius) and sveti Prokopije (st Procopius) especially like archery.
Gavro ?krivanić measured saint warriors? height and bow length and comparing these two values concluded that ?Length of Serbian composite bow was 90 to 120 cm? (35.4 to 47.2 inches). (Oru?je u srednjovekovnoj Srbiji, Bosni i Dubrovniku, Beograd: Naučno delo, 1957.) Well, that?s short! 90 cm bow? Zoran Pavlović recently made more realistic estimate for two bows from Lesnovo monastery, 125-130 cm, and 110-115 cm for average bows (ATARNet discussion forum/Hardware/ 2 Serbian bows-''graphic'' reconstruction of bow shape by). I decide to make comprehensive study.
I found 15 pictures of saint archers? frescoes with visible enough bows and good enough resolution for measurements. 6 from Dečani, 3 from Lesnovo, 2 from Pećka Patrijar?ija and Markov manastir and 1 from Sveti Nikita and Veluće. Measurements were made in Inkscape, vector graphics editor program. Bows were measured tip to tip, along the string. If just half of bow was visible it was assumed that other half is of same length. If bow was in quiver it was assumed that quiver fits very good to bow, i.e. that bow tip is very close to the quiver tip. Body dimensions taken to compare with bow length and their assumed values were: height-180cm, face length (chin to hair)-20cm, shoulder width-50cm, waist width-40cm, hip width-40cm, waist to top of head distance-80cm, leg length-85cm, lower leg length-50cm, arm length-80cm, shoulder to elbow-40cm, elbow to fingertip-50cm. Also, arrow length was assumed to be 80cm, and closed arrow quiver length to be 85cm.
Not all body parts were visible on all pictures. 109 comparisons were made, 7 per bow on average.
Average bows' length when compared with different parameters:
Parameter.............Bow length (cm, in)
Waist width......................146......58
Face length......................135......53
Elbow to fingertip.............132......52
Shoulder width.................131......52
Waist to top of head........125......49
Quiver length...................121......47
Arrow length....................119......47
Leg length.......................117......46
Shoulder to elbow...........116......46
Arm length ......................115......45
Warrior?s height...............114......45
Lower leg length..............107......42
Hip width.........................103......41
Length for different bows (average for all comparisons for that bow)
Monastery................................Archer.............Bow length (cm, in)
Patriarchate of Peć..................St Procopius............153.......60
Marko?s monastery...................St Demetrios...........147.......58
Marko?s monastery...................Angel......................145.......57
Monastery of saint Nikita..........St Nikita..................142.......56
Lesnovo...................................St Mercurius............136.......54
Lesnovo...................................St Demetrios...........129.......51
Dečani.....................................St Eustatius.............123.......48
Dečani.....................................Unknown I...............121.......48
Dečani.....................................St Nestor.................117.......46
Dečani.....................................St Victor...................117.......46
Dečani.....................................St Mercurius ............116.......46
Patriarchate of Peć.................St Demetrios............113........44
Lesnovo..................................St Procopius.............112........44
Dečani.....................................Unknown II...............98........39
Veluće.....................................St Dejan....................97.........38
Average for all bows and all measurements is 124cm (49?). Most of bows are in 110-140cm range, and not 90-120 as previously described.
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MupKo
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- Location: Novi Sad, Serbia
I did two more parameter measurements following same methodology.
Rigid tip lenght was on average 10% of bow lenght, varying from 8 to 14%. That would be 13cm (9-17 cm).
Limb maximal thickness was 2,8% of bow lenght, what would be 3,5 cm if lenght determination is correct. One extream had thickness of 4,9cm, while all others was in 3-3,9 cm range.
Rigid tip lenght was on average 10% of bow lenght, varying from 8 to 14%. That would be 13cm (9-17 cm).
Limb maximal thickness was 2,8% of bow lenght, what would be 3,5 cm if lenght determination is correct. One extream had thickness of 4,9cm, while all others was in 3-3,9 cm range.