Yanghai (Scythian) bow weight tested

jiao · Post by **jiao** » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:00 pm

Take the example of the so-called the discovery of Cao Cao's tomb late last year.
You know if you go to a Chinese antiquities market there will be some smattering of authentic items surrounded by a plethora of modern junk

i can say it is ture, after china do innovate economy the businessman's greed not or a few limitative by law or conscientiously,all bad thing is people hanker the money to much,any way if you got more money you will be a succeed man, actually in my works i can not eulogize my lead like psalmodic she want to hear,and not got some money conscienceless when i do businessman , in Wall Street we can find same but more greet people there

maybe what is right way don't go too extreme way need all times study and thinking it, how much money you need and want? how much affliction and happy on this road? maybe it will turn more religionary, human hurt all being on earth, what time the human will reduce amount fit the resource and nature,the result is war

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:52 pm

Jiao; I am not criticizing a Chinese market or businessmen. I am saying that there may be some real gems in this television programming among all the junk.

Dusan; For instance the bow you posted is Stephen's #4 bow from Yanghai: http://www.atarn.org/chinese/Yanghai/yanghai.htm

Adam; Please tell me how you see a Scythian bow in this Ibex from Central Asia. I used pieces going backwards and forwards, right side up and upside down.

Adam Karpowicz · Post by **Adam Karpowicz** » Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:22 pm

Jack, the core has to be bent to follow the deflex in the middle of the limbs.

Adam

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:28 pm

Oups... I realy dont think that this is same bow. Pic is from this film and from this angle looks ... strange. I think that Adam mean somthing like this Jack

jiao · Post by **jiao** » Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:10 am

jack,it is real lots imitated antique there and good businessman not sell it expensive, i see lots sword of han and Warring states cost 20$ there,i want got a new one if it has no rubiginous dispose it , the weight and handel very fit my hand, the huge amount imitated antique sell cheep for the demand like we use fiberglass "tradition" hornbow

did we need consider the custom of put something to a man' tomb? his bow is he often useing bow or make a new easy bow to his tomb, in the movie say the if the bow kill mans it must break it for the tomb in Scythian custom, in the case some people's bow not follow it's master to the tomb ?

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:10 am

I see a Scythian bow no more inspired by Ibex than it is by water buffalo. It can be seen that there is no hook on the end of the horn. The hook must be induced. The limbs are curved but no more so than any horn. In fact the natural curve of the Ibex must be relaxed. The deflex in the limb must then be radically bent AGAINST the natural bend of the horn and then once again allowed to return to a natural bend. And this is only the vertical core. The process of reversing the natural bend must be repeated on the belly.

The bow which is entirely designed around the natural curve of the Ibex preceded the Scythian culture by one thousand years; the angular composite of the Near East.

That the Scythian bow had predecessors in Central Asia is borne out in Bede's and JJ's post concerning antler lath reenforced Neolithic bows of southern Siberia. What would be most informative would be a link (or three) between these two designs. (Siberian and Scythian)

The illustration shows Ibex laths laid out in their natural curves. Two of these equals an angular bow. Sorry for the rant. Jack

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:30 am

Jack,
I think you have made a very good point about the angular bow.

redhawk · Post by **redhawk** » Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:34 am

Remember the Greek hornbows, all made according to the same principle........the handle section has not to be made of horn, whether it bends or not, no need of a running through horn lengthwise...........look at Dusan?s sample.
Michael

Adam Karpowicz · Post by **Adam Karpowicz** » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:08 am

Jack,

"I see a Scythian bow no more inspired by Ibex than it is by water buffalo. It can be seen that there is no hook on the end of the horn. The hook must be induced."

I know what you mean. However, we should remember there were no splices found in the vertical horn of the limbs and the back to belly thickness of the vertical strip was over 1/2in mid limb. Now, where can you find horn of this thickness mid length? The best way to cut a strip like that is from the sides of horn (as you did with your bow, didn't you?).

Secondly, the ibex horns vary quite a bit as to the curvature of the tips. I had a picture of an ibex with the curves just like the bows. Other species of ibex or even individual animals may look differently. Not all bows had such a sharp curve at the tips (perhaps most of them did not actually), or the "hook" was much smaller. This is why I stated before the curvature of the tips was not intended to increase the energy storage of the bows by the supposed "unrolling".

"In fact the natural curve of the Ibex must be relaxed. The deflex in the limb must then be radically bent AGAINST the natural bend of the horn and then once again allowed to return to a natural bend."

Yes, the deflex in the core is forced against the natural bend of the horn. Then, as the bow is used, the outer limbs (assuming no forced pre-bending there) will straighten out a little as in other horn bows.

"And this is only the vertical core. The process of reversing the natural bend must be repeated on the belly."

Yes, it can be repeated on the thinner strips, now cut from the outer side of horn (as usual), or the strips thus cut are reversed inside out to be put on the bow. In both cased some heat pre-bending is needed, but easy to do on the thinner strips.

"The bow which is entirely designed around the natural curve of the Ibex preceded the Scythian culture by one thousand years; the angular composite of the Near East."

It is quite possible as well. In the angular bows less curved horns make the shape of the belly, but I do not see why it had to be ibex. Horns of most animals are curved.

Do you have a link to the neolitic bows? I can not recal what they were at the moment.

Adam

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:44 pm

Adam; "I know what you mean. However, we should remember there were no splices found in the vertical horn of the limbs and the back to belly thickness of the vertical strip was over 1/2in mid limb. Now, where can you find horn of this thickness mid length? The best way to cut a strip like that is from the sides of horn (as you did with your bow, didn't you?)."

Yes I did. I think it is brilliant of you to suggest this. But you did this also from Water buffalo and had no problem finding a suitable piece. Therefore your bow was inspired by a water buffalo?

"Yes, it can be repeated on the thinner strips, now cut from the outer side of horn (as usual), or the strips thus cut are reversed inside out to be put on the bow."

I would emphatically say yes again. In this manner the horn requirements for a Scythian bow can be obtained from a single horn.

My Siberian bow slide is somewhere hiding. Maybe Bede or anyone else will post here.

Michael; Please demonstrate that a Greek type Scythian bow had a different construction method than say, the Yanghai bows. I am not disagreeing.

Adam Karpowicz · Post by **Adam Karpowicz** » Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:50 pm

"Therefore your bow was inspired by a water buffalo..."

No, I had to splice the curved tips to the buff horn strips (taken from the side walls).

Adam

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:49 am

All; "In this manner the horn requirements for a Scythian bow can be obtained from a single horn."

This would only be true if Scythians had a saw available, or a similar tool. If only a chopping tool such as an adz were used, then the same bow would require 4 horns.

This is something I would like to get to the bottom of.

Adam Karpowicz · Post by **Adam Karpowicz** » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:50 am

I have pondered this question for a long time. One can cut horn without a saw. It is possible to make grooves in horn to follow the shapes until the desired piece is broken free. It can be done even without a metal blade - a piece of flint would do fine. Ths method will work best on relatively thin material such as the side walls of horns or on the outer sections not too close to the solid tips of horns, where the material is too thick. The cuts will probabbly be easier when the horn is softened by heat.

Adam

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:25 pm

Adam and all; I would assume then that you are familiar with the Eskimo technique of removing slats of ivory from a whole walrus tusk by this method?

Recently I was wondering if it were possible to split horn with any accuracy. Has anyone tried this technique?

I found it unproductive to make a split diving into the center of a horn (piece) but the split followed nicely, even easily, parallel-ish to the surface. Am I coming across?

In this manner, Adam's technique of channeling a horn would not need to reach the center of the horn, could go to the very tip, and then a slat of sufficient thickness PRIED off the whole horn.

The only way to know for sure is to try it. -j-

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:44 am

I know that Dr Grayson had worked on antler this way and he had found an excavated antler partly worked suggesting this was a very old procedure. While antler is more brittle than horn and harder, I can see no reason that the same technique could be applied to horn.

Grayson's method for taking strips out of Bighorn Sheep horn was to drill a series of holes following the line he wanted to use and then splitting the horn between the holes. He always claimed to me that this type of horn was most difficult to saw precisely. My experience was that it was even difficult to drill with small diameter drills. However, using an old fashioned bow-drill, I am sure most horns could have been drilled and split.

Drilling and gouging, followed by splitting, seems to me to be a viable technique in the absence of a saw. I have split horn with a knife hammered on the back in short sections. Perhaps this would be viable between holes drilled along a line.