Bamboo arrow debate

[jack farrell]

Tiger; It is possible for you to match the spacing of the fletch node because I am already buying gardening bamboos from China and doing just that.

Your current bamboo groups are designed for beginners. Since you have very many bamboo sticks, you might create master quality shafts from the same bamboos.

Please read the posts above and consider my plan.

I taught my friend to make these arrows from Chinese garden bamboo.

[Thomas Duvernay]

I've posted this question on KTA forum, I guess might ask here as well:
Does anyone know where can I get "original" Korean bamboo? Recall Thomas writing about the price ones (25 USD per shaft ready to assembly?)

Raw Korean bamboo was a couple bucks each and heated/straighted was several times that (I don't remember exactly, as it's been quite a while since I last bought any).

[jchocz]

Your current bamboo groups are designed for beginners. Since you have very many bamboo sticks, you might create master quality shafts from the same bamboos.

I have bamboo shafts (Tiger). I disagree that it is for beginners. I bought 300 copies and do the arrows on the traditional archery competitions in the Czech Republic (5-10 place). Colleague Championship Czech Republic (traditional archery) finished second (I had made Bamboo Arrows - shafts Tiger). Using only bamboo arrows.

[jack farrell]

jchocz; I do believe that a craftsman such as yourself, when given the choice, will choose node matched and weight matched shafts as opposed to random nodes and wide weight variation.

Did you see the bundles of sticks being sold to the Korean fletchers? Tiger can make up similar bundles when he learns that this will improve his stock greatly will little extra effort.

I am ready to recommend when the next generation of selecting becomes established. Till then, there is improvement needed

PS. He asked for advice.

[Orda Khan]

First piece of advice I'd offer is forget spining the shafts and select by weight. As Ashbow has mentioned already, the west is too fixated with spine.

[jchocz]

First piece of advice I'd offer is forget spining the shafts and select by weight. As Ashbow has mentioned already, the west is too fixated with spine.

Shafts sorted by weight and guidance by node. Shafts finalize grinding, followed by heating equal. I use epoxy paint and hardened shafts equal. We will produce guidance arrows 30 (or more). Arrows classing under the weight of the final group with tolerance to 2 grams of weight.

Sometimes the shafts are the same weight, equally spaced nodes and arrows fly poorly. It's more of the parameters that must be considered. It is best to sort the finished arrows.

[Orda Khan]

I agree, sometimes I think the shaft decides if it will be a good arrow. All I am saying is set of shafts of same/similar weight is better than same/similar spine.

[stiventiger]

Here is what I would want. Node placement is necessary for the highest quality arrows. One has to start somewhere when cutting arrow shafts anyway. So this is my preferred layout. Those shafts which will not fit into this format can be kept for second quality also.

Bamboos from the same area and of the same weight tend to also have similar node placement. If one had 100 acceptable shafts, one could lay them all out and make some very nice groupings.

The weight range I give is for #35 to 50 target type bows within the draw range specified. I cut the fletch node to 7" from the end, overall length 27" and want a 20 gram finished shaft weight anyway. Only a very few shafts of the proper weight will lack sufficient spine.

Others will have their own specifications. For instance Ginni shoots a heavy bow and his shafts start as 30-40 grams at 34".

Hi
to do such bamboo arrow shafts is quite simple and easy for me,i worry it is too short only 30",
1) if so short arrow is for small amount of person?
2) if i make 33" long and same design?but weight will be 30-35grams?
which design is best for user? i hope my design is for 99% user,not only for 10-20% person use,i am not expert on this,just want my design is for most people,not so small amount of person,so,if the llength to 33" long with same design?

[stiventiger]

Orda Khan, thank you for moving the discussion to the new topic.
As far as I can make it from the pictures, your shafts look straight with the diameter even at the nodes and the internodes.
What is the source of those particular shafts then?
What do you mean by Tiger shafts being the same?

Here is a picture showing the weight spread in the last batch of bamboo shafts I handled. All shafts have been from the Chinese E-bay seller.
http://picasaweb.google.com/Ashbow2/Bam ... 8167844946
The weight avarages at 25-26 grams, for a 33" long shaft.

As I wrote before, they are not very sraight, I don't know the species, but I recall Jack Farrell? writing about 'mountain bamboo being not very uniform'.

I also went through another batch of 36 shafts that are about 40" long, from which I managed to select 20 that would produce a shaft with three nodes for a 32" long arrow and a fletch node 7" from the thinner end, that is according to Jack's advice. This was the first step, I need to cut them to lenght and weight them, I'll get back to you after that to report how many I have needed to reject.

Jack, thanks for the drawing.

Hi
to do 25-26 grams, for a 33" long shaft is not problem for me,just choice diameter from 7-8MM with spine 30-40# will match this request,but is 25-30grams,i always confused,many person want to compare bamboo arrow to wood and a lot of people want to make bamboo arrow into standards,it is quite difficult,but i can do that,as i tell people,bamboo live on montain and some of them face sun which growping more strong fibre=more stiff(thin but big spine and light weight)some live back sun,so,heavy and thin fibre and less spine,but if we choice only face living bamboo will uping the material cost.
and now people shoot bamboo just for enjoy or relax after so heavy job,but some professinonal people want to use bamboo arrow to win the competetion:if this way,you should choice best bamboo arrow shafts to do your game bamboo arrows,and this will depend on user's exprence and habbit shoot bow and so on,it is quite complex choice.some say yes,and some say not good.
in a word,i can do bamboo arrow shafts in a unform format and like drawing design;to les work of arrow maker's work:to let them choice more game bamboo arrows,anyway i can do most design bamboo shafts,but my basic point is the design is for 99% user,not for only 10-20% user,as i hope all people can use bamboo arrow:instead of wood( to save forest,as cedar need minimum 15 -20 years grow to cut into arrow shafts,but bamboo only need 4-5 years grow and it grow quite easy and nobady care it and it grwo rondowly so faster and easy

[stiventiger]

Ash; That is a really nice bunch of sticks! it would take me 100 hours or more to prepare those.

Grinding on the points can adjust for weight and a bamboo shiskabob skewer or finish nail can be glued into the nock end to help balance shafts. So you can put the 24s or the 26s into the group of the 25s and this would be a majority of all the shafts. The heavy ones can be given or traded to a strong bow type and the weak ones reserved for newbies or youngsters. High quality light shafts make good distance arrows, for instance for over 100m.

You skim off half of the fantasy quality shafts for yourself and make up the others for friends. If some tweeking is needed, well this is all in the craft.

yes,that is my original design point:i sell so cheaper bamboo arrow shafts,some people can choice best quality they think to do best quality game or professional training arrow,some is just for gift and some is just for shoot enjoying or for exciting or just pass free time for no aim.

[stiventiger]

I had a dozen of those bamboo shafts on the same order as Orda ( no pun intended ) and I am quite pleased with them. They were obtained from Mark Hill, bought through ebay.

As Orda has mentioned the node placement could be better but they are nice and consistent. I have made up 4 complete arrows from them so far and another 4 with points and nocks, waiting for feathers to arrive to finish them.

We split the 2 dozen into the heaviest and lightest, with me having the lightest as I shoot a lighter bow. I weighed and labelled each shaft and there were 2 shafts that were considerably lighter than the rest, with the other 10 having a spread of about 30 grains from lightest to heaviest. To make the 4 test arrows, i selected 4 out of the middle that had a close range and cut them all to the same length, and built them up. I was very suprised to find that when finished, the spread between the lighest and heaviest of the 4 arrows is only 6 grains.

They fly beautifully compared to the wood shafts I was previously using ( POC ) but these were admittedly a bit too weak, and they are very smooth to shoot. My technique with the thumb ring leaves a lot to be desired, it is still early days but I am already finding bamboo a lot more forgiving, nicer to shoot and they are grouping well when I shoot properly.

I'm shooting these out of a TRH Crimean Tartar, but I have a Kaya Korean on order which should arrive today. Can't wait to try it out with bamboo's

when i design the bamboo arrow shafts,i already image the people will use bamboo arrow shafts :divide them into some group for vaired use aim:
some for competetion game,some for gift,some for trainning and some for pass happy time.i trust best quality bamboo arrrow should be champion of other material whatever aluminium or fibre,some people tell me 1988,when korean olimpic game,some korean national member use bamboo arrows only and they win the champion finally,of course,they choice best quality of bamboo arrows to take part in the olimpic game

[stiventiger]

Jack,
I agree with your diagram, it is similar to the Korean ratios, however the section in front of the first node I would prefer to see at least 5".

Ashbow,
Mark Hill, as Igneas has mentioned. Tiger shafts being the same...meaning similar weight, ie on the heavy side. These are quite a bit heavier than the Pseudosasa Japonica shafts I used. Incidentally, I have a few culms in the garage, drying so I should put them to use.

I think weight of shaft should be the priority over the western 'spine' notion. As Jack has already said, the spine will fall in the same bracket.

Igneas,
Yes they are quite nice and ok for day to day but consider the spread over the 24 shafts ... That would not do for quality arrows.

Hi
what is "Igneas"meanning,i have to say,make hill give me a lot of idea on how to do bamboo arrow,he bring me the spine idea and longth and weight etc,i will say thank him very much to let my bamboo shafts go to this world so quickly and quite smoothly

[stiventiger]

Jack,
I agree with your diagram, it is similar to the Korean ratios, however the section in front of the first node I would prefer to see at least 5".

Ashbow,
Mark Hill, as Igneas has mentioned. Tiger shafts being the same...meaning similar weight, ie on the heavy side. These are quite a bit heavier than the Pseudosasa Japonica shafts I used. Incidentally, I have a few culms in the garage, drying so I should put them to use.

I think weight of shaft should be the priority over the western 'spine' notion. As Jack has already said, the spine will fall in the same bracket.

Igneas,
Yes they are quite nice and ok for day to day but consider the spread over the 24 shafts ... That would not do for quality arrows.

Hi
if you show me original korean bamboo arrow and japanese kuydo shafts photos and mark them with size and weight etc?i like to use my eye to study them better and clearly,and i try to do better quality than koreanand japanese kuydo,as their skill come from china may be 2000years ago,i think chinese bamboo arrow is original place,even japan and korean go ahead so faster,but i should let people know in future,china bamboo arrow is best:as the material is better :thick wall and original very straight living and economic price etc,as they still to do bamboo arrows by hand:3-5 pcs one day, and we do polish and hand stragihten them into finish:1000-3000pcs/day if we want to do
and we double heat:in stove and carbonized:more uniform heating to keep same spine each part of bamboo,and they process is only some small part of bamboo.i don't want to say japan or korean bamboo is poor,but i think chinese can be done better and better without end quality standards

[stiventiger]

Has anyone bought Tiger's 6-piece fishpole constructed shafts?

it is still in process,we bought some new machine and after 3 month,i can do above 40# hxbamboo shafts:use hot glue and more heavy pressure,but i worry they are heavier than natural shafts,as natural bamboo shafts is hollow:fly like ship:float on air=fly more straight line at tartget.heavy hexbamboo will sink easier,you have to up the bow and will be little difficult to shoot at target.but natural is not this problem during 50 meter:just keep precise at target and repeat some times,you will find out best right position of bow when shoot:it need more practice to find out this position

[stiventiger]

Orda nad Igneas,
So, Mark is sourcing the shafts from E-bay too, did I understand correctly? If he is, then I wonder if he's getting them form the same seller I was writing about, I can find only one Chinese seller selling bamboo shafts on E-bay.

I agree with Orda about the priority of weight over stiffness, actualy it is quite interesting to me how the approach to matching arrows in the West has changed since introducing the spine value. It is of wonder how much attention is payed to the exact stiffness (what we now tend to call 'the static spine') in a set of arrows while in the same time a lot of arrowmakers will not at all be concerned about the weight spread of several grams. Before the 'spine age' the shafts would be matched according to weight and enough stiffness to 'stand in the bow'.

When buing those Chinese shafts form E-bay, it is probably better to buy lots, because they will be not selected enough in a small set like 24 shafts. As mentioned the weight spread is quite large. Also the node placement is completely random, especially in the shorter arrows, this doesn't give almost any room for matching according to the node placement, the nodes spacing also varies considerably form shaft to shaft, so even if you get all the shafts with the fletch node at the same distance from the nock, the remaining nodes will still not match.

The progress with 40" long shafts haven't gone well, I started with 20 shafts out of 36.
After cutting them to lenght I had to reject a couple with a bad node placement. Those shafts, contary to the shorter ones bought from the same supplier, appear to be not straightened at all...When I started to weight them I gave up with making a matched set, I ended up with 6 shafts that still have a weight spread of nearly 10 grams...

Jack, thank you for the advice, the shafts are not mine, I'm just doing the fletchers work. As the saying goes, a shoemaker goes without shoes .

spine idea is come from mark hill which is more scientific standards,as arrow fly in snake action even you can see this.bamboo have very strong fibre than any wood,so,when it fly,its snake action is very small and faster than wood=more precise at target:just keep precise when shoot,wood fibre is very short and weak:easy to break and fly slowly than bamboo:that is top secrest even many wood shafts seller refuse the accept it:they have to keep them job tightly and say bad word of bamboo shafts:it is natural feedback,i know it:even you give them gold and they relpy it is shit.
long size bamboo shafts is more difficult to staright them tha nshort shafts,you can image it.more longer,more difficult to hand straight them,so japanese do only 3-5pcs each day just for staright kuydo ,we can produce 1000pcs/day,even 3000pcs if market want.