Bamboo arrow debate

[stiventiger]

Damn Ashbow (just kidding)
Circle of thoughts in my head again, I was this close to order some Ebay bamboo - it looks good, price is right and out of 1000 I could probably select a few sets, but what I would do with a rest of them?
And some people wander why those Korean and Japanese bamboo arrows are expensive...

they are waiting my shafts coming,: in fact,they do only 3-5 pcs/person/day,so,the price is uping very higher,even they polish nodes and bamboo part by hand total( no necessary to do this way=they should accpt modern machine to do this job)
i am univercity degree,i know how to hurry the process and use machine instead of hand work and down the cost=no waste time and money to polish total bamboo by hand,but they insisit on trandistional way even it is not scientific,but no machine 1000year ago,now full of pilish machine,why they still polish them by hand?

[stiventiger]

I've posted this question on KTA forum, I guess might ask here as well:
Does anyone know where can I get "original" Korean bamboo? Recall Thomas writing about the price ones (25 USD per shaft ready to assembly?)

this design is my orginal design even i don't knwo what is kuydo and korean bamboo arrow,but when we collect material,we meet big problem,such material is less and cost more expensive,my orginal idea is first let more people to know what is bamboo arrows and practive them so many,and then we will produce higher quality bamboo shafts for professional use,but this photo is diffirent from first diagram which is no nodes at flecth part,i am confused if it is no necessary to cancel last nodes:it is quite difficult and will waste many bamboo material,last nodes is no meanings,just without it for easy flat fletching,last nodes is only for grasp the nodes heaviy,but use thread or glur type node will resolve the problem,if i am right,we say: no necessary drawing the snake add extra foot,as snake havn't no foot,if i am right,it is quite interesting ,i want to do perfect bamboo shafts to cover even pickyyest guy's mouth

[stiventiger]

I believe he placed an order for 1000 shafts, it could be the same supplier. Sorry about the photos they are quite poor quality, it was a horrible, wet day with poor light. Those three are particularly straight (slight intervention from me)...should say were ... only two remain but let's not dwell on that.
I could accept the nodes being off providing all the shafts weighed the same but from a dozen shafts I could make three different sets ... not a lot of point in that. Even the Tiger shafts are spine matched so it's a difficult one to call. The fact still remains that they are heavy, 31-33 grams and these are spined at 40-45; more than 9gr per pound. The bow is still flinging them out ... it will be interesting to see what they are like at distance.
Having said all this, the archery we do is quite tough on arrows. Had that stupid accident last night happened with a quality arrow I'd have been suicidal, I was bad enough anyway.
With 40" shafts what is the taper like? Most of these were 5/16" down to between 1/4" and 9/32". I had a couple that were 11/32" up front.

mark shafts is type of china arrow bamboo material which is my first products:think wall and not so straighten,and quite difficult to collect material,we cancel this specie of bamboo and use tonkin bamboo instead:thick wall and natural straight material and easy production and easy hand stright too:we try our process beome alwasy easy standards;complex always make failed and easy=suceed,that is my philosophy to do all items.

[stiventiger]

Most of these were 5/16" down to between 1/4" and 9/32". I had a couple that were 11/32" up front.

I bought 500 pieces of bamboo shafts and divided them into four groups (50-55 lb 55-60 lb 60-70 lb 70-85 lb) of weight. Some actually have a larger diameter. Most groups have one the same diameter. Equality is quite good.

These are the arrows of the shipment:

bamboo arrow shafts have unique point:it is hollow and fly like ship on water,bamboo arrows float inside the air,so,its speed is very faster and less obstacle of air and less snake action-more precise at target,another it is very beautiful like art,and very active looking,people will ve exciting just looking at it and wood arrow like : people will sleep after long time seeing at it even it is more histry;usa no live bamboo or no live good bamboo for making arrow shafts.so they use wood:easy sunk and cost very high and easy break and sleeping looking.sorry may be i am wrong,but i love bamboo arrow very much;perfect work result+very nice art looling ven many people refuse to use it,i think gold is alwasy gold,even some less of them say they are shit. but the time will be the final adjustice who is right

[stiventiger]

Tiger; It is possible for you to match the spacing of the fletch node because I am already buying gardening bamboos from China and doing just that.

Your current bamboo groups are designed for beginners. Since you have very many bamboo sticks, you might create master quality shafts from the same bamboos.

Please read the posts above and consider my plan.

I taught my friend to make these arrows from Chinese garden bamboo.

i see your diagram and korean shafts photos and it is very very easy and simple work for me,just price is uping and if your design is match 99% request?as here is factory,i must think 99% person use,not for small people habbit.if i change it into your request,the price will be uping a lot,as we have waste many bamboo material and produce less amount and ofcourse price will uping.

[stiventiger]

jchocz; I do believe that a craftsman such as yourself, when given the choice, will choose node matched and weight matched shafts as opposed to random nodes and wide weight variation.

Did you see the bundles of sticks being sold to the Korean fletchers? Tiger can make up similar bundles when he learns that this will improve his stock greatly will little extra effort.

I am ready to recommend when the next generation of selecting becomes established. Till then, there is improvement needed

PS. He asked for advice.

Hi
yes,i need improve always the quality,my quality standards is no standards(it come from chinese philosophy and very complex to expain)
why i don't sell to korean,that is business right that is already divided when start to sell,and korean people is quite solid mind and they refuse to use other standard even it is better quality and price,they always think all korean items is best quaility and this mind is come from thier culture, they have been pressed deeply by japanese many years and many korean have anti foreign items's spirit what even bamboo arrows or car or other items,you can see very less foreign items in their country,almost made in korean.less germany,japan,usa products.they don't buy my shafts=they love their country very much,you can ask any korean if it is truth,you will get my similar reply.

[stiventiger]

First piece of advice I'd offer is forget spining the shafts and select by weight. As Ashbow has mentioned already, the west is too fixated with spine.

Shafts sorted by weight and guidance by node. Shafts finalize grinding, followed by heating equal. I use epoxy paint and hardened shafts equal. We will produce guidance arrows 30 (or more). Arrows classing under the weight of the final group with tolerance to 2 grams of weight.

Sometimes the shafts are the same weight, equally spaced nodes and arrows fly poorly. It's more of the parameters that must be considered. It is best to sort the finished arrows.

western people love to make all item into standards,i know it is western culture,but if we make bamboo aroows into standards,it is quite complex;wegiht,spine,nodes distance and randown material,how we produce them like mould products( all is 100% size and same spine and same spine and same nodes distance?)
but i can do,but may be price is 50% or similar as kuydo or korean bamboo arrows,my originial point is let more and more people to use,to open the door of the secrest of the bamboo arrow,as the door is closed for only rich person for many years and many person is very curis for bamboo arrow,now the price is so economic bamboo shafts is go into normal shoot hand,and many people is very happy and exciting when shoot bamboo arrows,bamboo arrows is released from rich person door to go to 99% shooters,i am very happy just think of it.

[stiventiger]

I agree, sometimes I think the shaft decides if it will be a good arrow. All I am saying is set of shafts of same/similar weight is better than same/similar spine.

i am always confused for this:which is most import:spine or weight,i think till now people still argue for this points,also me is very confused for this,weight and spine what is more important as a bamboo arrows standards

[Orda Khan]

Hello Tiger. A lot of posts, I'll see if I can answer some of your questions. The bamboo shafts I have used are Pseudosasa Japonica from my own garden, 'Tiger' shafts and those from Mark Hill.

The shafts from Mark Hill had a large difference in weight range, a considerable number of grams difference. No doubt he is an English traditional archer and arrow spine is so important, they try to treat bamboo the same as wood. Anyway, these shafts are ok, not absolutely straight (they needed some attention) and there does appear to be some evidence of fibre damage (faint cracks) from initial straightening on some.

My own is obviously limited in supply. The species appears to be lighter in weight, I was making finished arrows with total weight of around 400 grains, about 26 grams. I was able to get these very straight and my wife still has a small set that are perfectly straight after years. I prepared these by hand, as you say it is very hard work sanding each one.

The Tiger shafts I bought were very good, straighter than the others and the node spacing matched quite well. The weight was more evenly matched although I only had four to examine. They seem darker in colour so not sure if this is due to baking or just species. These shafts, in my opinion, are better than those from Mark Hill.

Jack's diagram shows good node placement, obviously the nodes will not line up perfectly. I agree with you about the length, 33 inches is much better as wooden shafts are 32" as standard and these are not long enough. Good node placement will allow shafts to be shortened anyway.

We'll see what others think but I would add selling by weight rather than spine.

[stiventiger]

Hello Tiger. A lot of posts, I'll see if I can answer some of your questions. The bamboo shafts I have used are Pseudosasa Japonica from my own garden, 'Tiger' shafts and those from Mark Hill.

The shafts from Mark Hill had a large difference in weight range, a considerable number of grams difference. No doubt he is an English traditional archer and arrow spine is so important, they try to treat bamboo the same as wood. Anyway, these shafts are ok, not absolutely straight (they needed some attention) and there does appear to be some evidence of fibre damage (faint cracks) from initial straightening on some.

My own is obviously limited in supply. The species appears to be lighter in weight, I was making finished arrows with total weight of around 400 grains, about 26 grams. I was able to get these very straight and my wife still has a small set that are perfectly straight after years. I prepared these by hand, as you say it is very hard work sanding each one.

The Tiger shafts I bought were very good, straighter than the others and the node spacing matched quite well. The weight was more evenly matched although I only had four to examine. They seem darker in colour so not sure if this is due to baking or just species. These shafts, in my opinion, are better than those from Mark Hill.

Jack's diagram shows good node placement, obviously the nodes will not line up perfectly. I agree with you about the length, 33 inches is much better as wooden shafts are 32" as standard and these are not long enough. Good node placement will allow shafts to be shortened anyway.

We'll see what others think but I would add selling by weight rather than spine.

the fact that Mark Hill is come from also my first period bamboo shafts which is made by chinese arrow bamboo( not tonkin bamboo),but we think it is thin bamboo wall and easy break and too tapered shape,and than we abandon this specie and to use tonkin bamboo which is thick wall and very stiff( i always want to make very stiff to let user many repeat use without damage)and little taper which look more beautiful.
but i also think weight is not so important compare with spine,as tonkin bamboo is hollow,when it fly,it is shown float fly like ship on water:even heavey tonkin weight,i image its fly speed still faster than same weight of wood.as wood is solid,it is sunk fly,not float,i shoort bamboo arrow,and it show almost same line and very faster speed;almost fly to atrget straightly(i shoot 20meter)

Jack's diagram is easy for me to realise,just to make them 33" long:to leave enough space for arrow maker to adjust their correct longth,that is also my originaa design thinking:to leave more space,as person have
vaired right longth of arrow.
if 30" will limit arrow maker room to satisfying vaired user requests.
,i think most important of Jack's diagram:to leave flat and smooth last nodes at least 20-30cm to make fletch become easy work:without the nodes which neasr nock 1.5-3cm:that is no meaning,as use thread or glue nock will enhence the arrow shafts enough:no split the nock even 1000time repeat shoot.also ytanditional horn insert nock is already flow into the market in future:this will become more easy for arrow maker:just put they loved fltech on and no do nock any more,also price is so economic:to save many time and money for nock making

[Orda Khan]

Weight is an important consideration for a number of reasons. The physical weight of the arrow against the strength of the bow. The ratio of 9 grains per pound of draw weight has long been considered ideal for the efficiency of the bow.
When it comes to cast, a heavier arrow is going to suffer before a lighter one. The range at my club is 18m and there is little difference at this distance but 50m will be a different story. The higher you need to aim means the further you are off the target and therefore harder to aim.

You are right, the nock end can be lashed with insert nock and no need for a node close to the end. I also like at least 5 inches from point to first node. It is hard to straighten this are if the node is too close to the point.

33" long is ideal length for me.

[jchocz]

Weight is an important consideration for a number of reasons. The physical weight of the arrow against the strength of the bow. The ratio of 9 grains per pound of draw weight has long been considered ideal for the efficiency of the bow.

33" long is ideal length for me.

I make my bamboo arrows (only bamboo arrows). I go to competitions in traditional archery (Czech Republic). Shoot a variety of disciplines - target shooting 20 and 25m shooting distance 70 m in standing figure, 120 m long-distance shooting at the figure, flow at different shooting distances, puta 90 meters. In the Czech Republic are better archers.

Interestingly - with Bamboo Arrows (shafts Tiger) I scored:

1) Target shooting 20 and 25 m, 10 arrows at each distance (61 and 62 points)
2) long-distance shooting 70 meters, 10 arrows (3 x action figures, 4 x evaluated Zone)
3) The shooting distance of 120 mm, 3 arrows (2 x action figures)
4) advancement shooting (the longest distance of 70m)
5) puta 90 meters, 10 arrows (3 x hit targets puta)

I think Bamboo Arrows (Tiger shafts as well as others) are good for arrows on the short and long distances. It requires more attention. I have shafts 33 "and can always make an arrow length of 29 to 31" close to the optimum (selection of shafts). Bamboo Arrows are certainly more tolerant than wood.

[jack farrell]

Stiven Tiger; Koreans will not go to your bamboo because they use a different kind and the customer can see the difference. Japanese are exactly the same. But you can still learn from them and adapt if you find it helpful.

Japanese and Korean arrows are mostly tapered. Koreans and Japanese weigh their arrows to make them exact. The arrows I posted are weighed to several grains, not grams.

In the picture of the Korean shafts, in the original picture, the top is for the fletch. You can see that their measurements start there.

Longer is probably better so most customers will be happy. They are easy to cut down.

I like Chinese bamboo because they are thin and strong. But I want them to match. If a few in a bundle of 100 are too weak (not enough spine) they can be kept for other bow weights. But if they do not match (weight and nodes), there is no set.

[jchocz]

Japanese and Korean arrows are mostly tapered. Koreans and Japanese weigh their arrows to make them exact. The arrows I posted are weighed to several grains, not grams.

If a few in a bundle of 100 are too weak (not enough spine) they can be kept for other bow weights. But if they do not match (weight and nodes), there is no set.

Bamboo is a natural material. NEVER homogeneous in all directions. Can not therefore guarantee (even if the difference in the number of grain shafts and of the same distribution of nodes in the shafts) as well shooting arrows. Similarly, many years ago no one was able to unify the weight difference of grain. It is the deviation of modern times.

It is true that exports to Japan and Korea will be difficult. My understanding - can produce the good arrows.

[Daniel]

Tiger,
Obviously you put a lot of energy into your work. I fully understand your commitment when it comes to selling "economy grade bamboo shafts to everybody". Your goal today - introduce those fairly inexpensive shafts to possibly largest number of archers might become a reason for a failure tomorrow.
Let me tell you why and it's very simple: we all here have one main thing in common - we appreciate quality and fine craftsmanship. That comes with price though and many of us here are willing to pay big bucks for handmade bows and arrows. Businesswise you can do two things: you can either continue to do what you're doing or take some good people's advise and go in little different direction - quality over quantity. As you see, Korean/Japanese shafts are neither cheap or easy to find. You have a unique chance to fill that gap on the market - supply good quality, matched shafts by dozens, offering those at fair price and widely available. Personally speaking I'd love to give a bamboo shafts a try but don't really want/can't buy those in 1000's randomly matched.