Bamboo arrow debate

[jchocz]

Your goal today - introduce those fairly inexpensive shafts to possibly largest number of archers might become a reason for a failure tomorrow.
Let me tell you why and it's very simple: we all here have one main thing in common - we appreciate quality and fine craftsmanship. That comes with price though and many of us here are willing to pay big bucks for handmade bows and arrows.

Bullshit. It's like the production car. Some automotive manufacturers produce luxury cars (per 100 000 USD or more) and do not exist. In contrast, such as Volkswagen (all cars) occupied a large part of the market. Normally sells cars in 15 to 30 thousand dollars. Who wants to shafts (1 piece for $ 25) the shafts can be ordered in Japan or Korea. In the manufacture of arrows are to be expected with the destruction, loss of arrows, and I want to shoot arrows. I do not have them just for decoration - with its exact weight and spacing of nodes (plus a lot of money).

Many archers shoot at distances up to 20-30 meters in the field (3D Shooting), where there is destruction of the arrows. What is an arrow at price of 100 USD?

[stiventiger]

Your goal today - introduce those fairly inexpensive shafts to possibly largest number of archers might become a reason for a failure tomorrow.
Let me tell you why and it's very simple: we all here have one main thing in common - we appreciate quality and fine craftsmanship. That comes with price though and many of us here are willing to pay big bucks for handmade bows and arrows.

Bullshit. It's like the production car. Some automotive manufacturers produce luxury cars (per 100 000 USD or more) and do not exist. In contrast, such as Volkswagen (all cars) occupied a large part of the market. Normally sells cars in 15 to 30 thousand dollars. Who wants to shafts (1 piece for $ 25) the shafts can be ordered in Japan or Korea. In the manufacture of arrows are to be expected with the destruction, loss of arrows, and I want to shoot arrows. I do not have them just for decoration - with its exact weight and spacing of nodes (plus a lot of money).

Many archers shoot at distances up to 20-30 meters in the field (3D Shooting), where there is destruction of the arrows. What is an arrow at price of 100 USD?

After discuss with some experts,i decide to do bamboo arrow shafts like wolkswagen below:
1)84cm long(33")30-92# above:end nodes part(near nock end)is 15cm for easy making fletch,diameter from 7-11cm,and weight from 25-40grams/pc
2)100cm long(39.4")35-92# above:end nodes part(near nock end)is 18cm for easy making fletch,diameter from 7.5-11cm,and weight from 30-45grams/pc
3)105cm-110cm long(41-43") for training kuydo use:65-92# above:end nodes part(near nock end)is 20cm for easy making fletch,diameter from 8.5-12cm,and weight from 35-50grams/pc
price is little higher than now.

[stiventiger]

Weight is an important consideration for a number of reasons. The physical weight of the arrow against the strength of the bow. The ratio of 9 grains per pound of draw weight has long been considered ideal for the efficiency of the bow.
When it comes to cast, a heavier arrow is going to suffer before a lighter one. The range at my club is 18m and there is little difference at this distance but 50m will be a different story. The higher you need to aim means the further you are off the target and therefore harder to aim.

You are right, the nock end can be lashed with insert nock and no need for a node close to the end. I also like at least 5 inches from point to first node. It is hard to straighten this are if the node is too close to the point.

33" long is ideal length for me.

i already make future specification now and concentrate on spine,i can do light weight:to use chinese arrow bamboo to make,but they are living bent and difficult to starighten thin wall and easy to break,i use still tonking bamboo.let japanese and korean produce light weight,i do walkswagen bamboo shafts.

[stiventiger]

Weight is an important consideration for a number of reasons. The physical weight of the arrow against the strength of the bow. The ratio of 9 grains per pound of draw weight has long been considered ideal for the efficiency of the bow.

33" long is ideal length for me.

I make my bamboo arrows (only bamboo arrows). I go to competitions in traditional archery (Czech Republic). Shoot a variety of disciplines - target shooting 20 and 25m shooting distance 70 m in standing figure, 120 m long-distance shooting at the figure, flow at different shooting distances, puta 90 meters. In the Czech Republic are better archers.

Interestingly - with Bamboo Arrows (shafts Tiger) I scored:

1) Target shooting 20 and 25 m, 10 arrows at each distance (61 and 62 points)
2) long-distance shooting 70 meters, 10 arrows (3 x action figures, 4 x evaluated Zone)
3) The shooting distance of 120 mm, 3 arrows (2 x action figures)
4) advancement shooting (the longest distance of 70m)
5) puta 90 meters, 10 arrows (3 x hit targets puta)

I think Bamboo Arrows (Tiger shafts as well as others) are good for arrows on the short and long distances. It requires more attention. I have shafts 33 "and can always make an arrow length of 29 to 31" close to the optimum (selection of shafts). Bamboo Arrows are certainly more tolerant than wood.

wommm,you get great results,like real master shooter.
bamboo arrows is also percte choice for real hunting,my usa friend us e bamboo arrow to shoot big hug very suceed.

[stiventiger]

Stiven Tiger; Koreans will not go to your bamboo because they use a different kind and the customer can see the difference. Japanese are exactly the same. But you can still learn from them and adapt if you find it helpful.

Japanese and Korean arrows are mostly tapered. Koreans and Japanese weigh their arrows to make them exact. The arrows I posted are weighed to several grains, not grams.

In the picture of the Korean shafts, in the original picture, the top is for the fletch. You can see that their measurements start there.

Longer is probably better so most customers will be happy. They are easy to cut down.

I like Chinese bamboo because they are thin and strong. But I want them to match. If a few in a bundle of 100 are too weak (not enough spine) they can be kept for other bow weights. But if they do not match (weight and nodes), there is no set.

i make new specification already for last nodes long,in fact all shafts is already done in such space.
i want to make shafts like walkswagen:to 99% person,japanese and korean is belong to luxuy cars,i can do them same as they done,i can do,but i want to leave them something to eat,if you have enough money you buy from them.they make bamboo arrow for rich guys.i insist on my style.

[stiventiger]

Tiger,
Obviously you put a lot of energy into your work. I fully understand your commitment when it comes to selling "economy grade bamboo shafts to everybody". Your goal today - introduce those fairly inexpensive shafts to possibly largest number of archers might become a reason for a failure tomorrow.
Let me tell you why and it's very simple: we all here have one main thing in common - we appreciate quality and fine craftsmanship. That comes with price though and many of us here are willing to pay big bucks for handmade bows and arrows. Businesswise you can do two things: you can either continue to do what you're doing or take some good people's advise and go in little different direction - quality over quantity. As you see, Korean/Japanese shafts are neither cheap or easy to find. You have a unique chance to fill that gap on the market - supply good quality, matched shafts by dozens, offering those at fair price and widely available. Personally speaking I'd love to give a bamboo shafts a try but don't really want/can't buy those in 1000's randomly matched.

In fact,i can do all waht japanese and korean done:choice light weight bamboo and straight them making 1 hole and polish them by hand totally,and match each weight and spine and devide into group and sell in dozen and sell may be only 1/3 -1/2th of their price,i don't like follow other's step and take their food out of their table.
i do my style:like walkswagen and sell them in bulk and for 99% person,of course i already make new specifiction :
1)84cm long(33")30-92# above:end nodes part(near nock end)is 15cm for easy making fletch,diameter from 7-11mm,and weight from 25-40grams/pc
2)100cm long(39.4")35-92# above:end nodes part(near nock end)is 18cm for easy making fletch,diameter from 7.5-11mm,and weight from 30-45grams/pc
3)105cm-110cm long(41-43") for training kuydo use:65-92# above:end nodes part(near nock end)is 20cm for easy making fletch,diameter from 8.5-12mm,and weight from 35-50grams/pc
price is little higher than now.

[Daniel]

"Bullshit"


Jchocz, strong word my friend. You see, Tiger asked many Atarnos for advice including me. I am only presenting my point of view and being Tiger's potential customer in the future I think I have a right to do so. I have no problem with criticism, but please don't act like you know it all, because you don't.

[jchocz]

"Bullshit"

Jchocz, strong word my friend. ...I have no problem with criticism, but please don't act like you know it all, because you don't.

Yes, it was a strong word. If it offends, I apologize. Good shafts are required. There are other parameters - points, nocks, right taper shafts, balancing - the CG shafts, rods and equality of other parameters. I had to make 300 arrows or more than the arrows to use (although I just shafts sorted by weight and distance of nodes). It is best to make more arrows, and arrows to sort finished (according to the actual characteristics of the shot). Not long ago I devoted much attention to shafts (weight and spacing of nodes) - Finished arrows flew differently. Today scratchbuild better arrows - sfafts not completely straight when the weight hangs scattering and various node distance.

In the distant past did not have the digital scales, timers SPIN and other tools of modern times. Koreans produce usable arrows for fighting, hunting and shooting friendly. When you look at the videos on Youtube, so you can see the production (primitive measurement hmotnosti?, primitive straightening shafts and above skill). No accurate measurement of the distance of nodes and weights. Therefore, I say - now produce bamboo shafts provide good arrows for many people a good price. Everyone can try, whether it be his hobby. Why should it be only for a few people?

If anyone has an extra high demands and a lot of money can buy shafts in Japan or Korea.

[stiventiger]

"Bullshit"


Jchocz, strong word my friend. You see, Tiger asked many Atarnos for advice including me. I am only presenting my point of view and being Tiger's potential customer in the future I think I have a right to do so. I have no problem with criticism, but please don't act like you know it all, because you don't.

agree,on archery field,too much to learn fo me:we say :study for total life till you can't move anymore,nobady perfect in this world
tiger

[stiventiger]

"Bullshit"

Jchocz, strong word my friend. ...I have no problem with criticism, but please don't act like you know it all, because you don't.

Yes, it was a strong word. If it offends, I apologize. Good shafts are required. There are other parameters - points, nocks, right taper shafts, balancing - the CG shafts, rods and equality of other parameters. I had to make 300 arrows or more than the arrows to use (although I just shafts sorted by weight and distance of nodes). It is best to make more arrows, and arrows to sort finished (according to the actual characteristics of the shot). Not long ago I devoted much attention to shafts (weight and spacing of nodes) - Finished arrows flew differently. Today scratchbuild better arrows - sfafts not completely straight when the weight hangs scattering and various node distance.

In the distant past did not have the digital scales, timers SPIN and other tools of modern times. Koreans produce usable arrows for fighting, hunting and shooting friendly. When you look at the videos on Youtube, so you can see the production (primitive measurement hmotnosti?, primitive straightening shafts and above skill). No accurate measurement of the distance of nodes and weights. Therefore, I say - now produce bamboo shafts provide good arrows for many people a good price. Everyone can try, whether it be his hobby. Why should it be only for a few people?

If anyone has an extra high demands and a lot of money can buy shafts in Japan or Korea.

great,japanese and korean already produced luxry bamboo arrow shafts for rich and few people,my stiuation make me produce wolkswagen style bamboo arrow shafts for most user,of course i need improve quality always:i already decide in future i make enough space on last node end to let people make easy fletching.also still economic price!!!
even we can do japnese and korean style:making bamboo arrows not need very higher technoloy,just need good material and enough patience,all person have 1 head and 2 hand,and we have better material than japan and korean,but we still insisit on our style:finally shoot just for relax,hunting or justfor fun or life style etc vaired aim.
and bamboo belong to normall plant material,it is not gold or diamand,so,bamboo arrows should for most person,not only for few and rich people game.

[jack farrell]

Tiger; For something like $100 or $150 you can buy on ebay a used set of four Japanese handmade bamboo arrows which originally cost more than $1000. As a craftsman I find these invaluable as models of perfect arrows.

Used Korean arrows sell for much less but can still be measured, weighed and used for comparison.

You have a right to be proud of your product. It is something that archers can use; not identical to Japanese or Korean but with enough good attributes to make the arrows useful. I will look for your offers on ebay and if I can find some bamboo which can make good quality arrows, I will try them.

You know (or maybe you did not, if you are a young man) that Volkswagen autos used to be air cooled, no radiators. The car was very inexpensive and fun to drive but the engines would not last long at all. The company almost went out of business but now all their cars are water cooled like other cars and they are still doing business.

The Japanese taught the world how reliable a car can be.

[jack farrell]

There is an American saying; The bitterness of poor quality lives on after the sweetness of low price is gone.

[stiventiger]

Tiger; For something like $100 or $150 you can buy on ebay a used set of four Japanese handmade bamboo arrows which originally cost more than $1000. As a craftsman I find these invaluable as models of perfect arrows.

Used Korean arrows sell for much less but can still be measured, weighed and used for comparison.

You have a right to be proud of your product. It is something that archers can use; not identical to Japanese or Korean but with enough good attributes to make the arrows useful. I will look for your offers on ebay and if I can find some bamboo which can make good quality arrows, I will try them.

You know (or maybe you did not, if you are a young man) that Volkswagen autos used to be air cooled, no radiators. The car was very inexpensive and fun to drive but the engines would not last long at all. The company almost went out of business but now all their cars are water cooled like other cars and they are still doing business.

The Japanese taught the world how reliable a car can be.

if you show me their photos,i remeber show me the kuydo shafts before and i can't find out big diffirence,just vaired longth,i can do 105-110cm long,try my bamboo arrow and then you will have real feeling what is bamboo arrows.
i don't know japanese yumi bow,but just look photos which i know at least it is not possible to take it on plane or car to travel anywhere to hunting or just for funning shoot.it looks too big size.
i drive KIA car and next year want to change to honda ordesy which can let me take many bows and arrows inside the car(MPV)
but in fact in china,full of volkswagen on the street and chinese like these car:less quality problems and medium price car and germany sell in china may be no.1 volkswagen ,then japan and and usa and europain cars.

[stiventiger]

There is an American saying; The bitterness of poor quality lives on after the sweetness of low price is gone.

i always try to improve my shafts quality,i don't let people said:tiger's shafts is cheaper and poor quality,i hope people say:womm,it is very nice shafts even better than japan and korean bamboo shafts,at least the price is much better and it is very straight and stiff enough o shoot many times whiout damage

[Alex S.]

The thing about Japanese arrows being so expensive is because they respect the quality of work. I know there are many arrow maker that, if had materials, could make Japanese quality level arrows. Though, because there are so few and the fact each arrow is hand/custom made per customer, the cost is more. You can buy custom made bamboo arrows here for 2~400 USD, the price rises with arrow length and fletching type. Japanese now using turkey feather because it is more durable, cheaper, and in big supply so good for beginner arrow but it does not fly as smooth as thinner eagle or hawk feather which is in low supply so much more expensive.

Though, most beginner here start with aluminum or fiberglass arrow which is durable and cheap for beginner, and later move up to bamboo arrow when they increase their skill. I do not know how Korean bamboo species is, but
bamboo here is thin wall because of the cold winter, and so they are stronger per diameter than warm weather bamboo of same wall thickness. (this is what I am told by arrow maker) This makes the bamboo much lighter per spine, so arrow performance rises. However, because it has thin wall it is more easily damaged than stiventiger bamboo so not good for beginner who often break/loose arrow from miss shot.

I think, bamboo is better solution to using fiberglass and aluminum arrow. It is natural, replenish able material and is more eco friendly. Also I believe a bamboo arrow is more forgiving to shoot than these modern arrow material for beginner. So, if a durable, mass produced bamboo arrow can be provided at low cost and some sort of matching, I think it will become very popular and will still leave room for higher performance/matched bamboo arrows from Korea and Japan. After all, everyone needs to start low when learning, but if there is only expensive equipment available there will be fewer wanting/able to learn. And people who go through a lot of arrows will enjoy having a good supply source from which they can order from.

Its like toilet paper, you can buy softest, best quality available, but when it runs out you wont care whether its top quality or not, you just need some, and a lot.