Bamboo arrow debate

[stiventiger]

The thing about Japanese arrows being so expensive is because they respect the quality of work. I know there are many arrow maker that, if had materials, could make Japanese quality level arrows. Though, because there are so few and the fact each arrow is hand/custom made per customer, the cost is more. You can buy custom made bamboo arrows here for 2~400 USD, the price rises with arrow length and fletching type. Japanese now using turkey feather because it is more durable, cheaper, and in big supply so good for beginner arrow but it does not fly as smooth as thinner eagle or hawk feather which is in low supply so much more expensive.

Though, most beginner here start with aluminum or fiberglass arrow which is durable and cheap for beginner, and later move up to bamboo arrow when they increase their skill. I do not know how Korean bamboo species is, but
bamboo here is thin wall because of the cold winter, and so they are stronger per diameter than warm weather bamboo of same wall thickness. (this is what I am told by arrow maker) This makes the bamboo much lighter per spine, so arrow performance rises. However, because it has thin wall it is more easily damaged than stiventiger bamboo so not good for beginner who often break/loose arrow from miss shot.

I think, bamboo is better solution to using fiberglass and aluminum arrow. It is natural, replenish able material and is more eco friendly. Also I believe a bamboo arrow is more forgiving to shoot than these modern arrow material for beginner. So, if a durable, mass produced bamboo arrow can be provided at low cost and some sort of matching, I think it will become very popular and will still leave room for higher performance/matched bamboo arrows from Korea and Japan. After all, everyone needs to start low when learning, but if there is only expensive equipment available there will be fewer wanting/able to learn. And people who go through a lot of arrows will enjoy having a good supply source from which they can order from.

Its like toilet paper, you can buy softest, best quality available, but when it runs out you wont care whether its top quality or not, you just need some, and a lot.

anyway my design of bamboo arrow style and prcie is for mostly person including beginner and often trainning also they can choice some best one for take part in the game to win the chaimpionship is also possible.
my bamboo shafts style is look nice like art and shoot faster speed and very thicker wall and stiff enough and many time to repeat shoot without damage and economic price and let more people to use bamboo arrow for hunting,trainning and shoot for funning and relax etc.
also many person buy and sell my shafts for making them become rich guy also.i trust all people love clean money

[jack farrell]

After spending some time cruising ebay for bamboo arrow shafts, I would like to offer my assessment.There are four sellers and five products;

Mayhill Archery sells tapered shafts from China but is based in the UK. The nodes appear to be randomly placed on shafts which are cured, tempered straightened and smoothed, spined but not weighed and cut to length and grouped by diameter of the large end (foot). $2 each plus delivery.

Kashi, from China, sells Tonkin bamboo shafts by length, diameter, and spine but no weights. He makes no reference to taper, or node placement or weight. $1.35 to 1.50 each delivered to USA. These are cured, tempered, smoothed, straightened.

Dennis from Alabama (USA) sells green arundinaria by length, notes node placement and diameters for .50 each plus delivery. One customer was happy, another reported excessive taper(?)

Tiger sells cured, tempered, straightened and smoothed Tonkin bamboos from China. He states lengths, weights and spines. He does not state node placement. Price is about $1.40 and up delivered in the USA.

Tiger's hex shafts are assembled of six pieces like a fish pole. Sold by length, diameter, weight and spine. delivered price is about $2.44 each piece USA.

Mayhill, Kashi and Tiger shafts appear to be targeted to the field archer. They should prove useful to those archers as well as those shooting bows at least #55 or 60. Suggestions to use plastic nocks and lack of node placement indicate their use at targets closer than 50m where loss is likely. Indicated weights are a bit heavy for the target archer especially in competition or at ranges exceeding 50m

Tiger's hex shaft might need further research and development. The beauty of fish poles made by this technique is the artistic staggering of the individual node sections which make up the shaft. Tiger's hexshaft appear to have the nodes grouped together reminiscent of a natural bamboo. The stated weight to spine makes natural bamboo shafts the clear favorite for weight, spine and price.

For myself, and look as I did, there was nothing offered which could produce a 22 gram average weight shaft for target purposes. Even if I ignore the spine stated, all shafts appeared to be overweight for the #40-50 draw weight.

Strong bow types should find the heavy shafts quite perfect, if node placement is unimportant.

[stiventiger]

After spending some time cruising ebay for bamboo arrow shafts, I would like to offer my assessment.There are four sellers and five products;

Mayhill Archery sells tapered shafts from China but is based in the UK. The nodes appear to be randomly placed on shafts which are cured, tempered straightened and smoothed, spined but not weighed and cut to length and grouped by diameter of the large end (foot). $2 each plus delivery.

Kashi, from China, sells Tonkin bamboo shafts by length, diameter, and spine but no weights. He makes no reference to taper, or node placement or weight. $1.35 to 1.50 each delivered to USA. These are cured, tempered, smoothed, straightened.

Dennis from Alabama (USA) sells green arundinaria by length, notes node placement and diameters for .50 each plus delivery. One customer was happy, another reported excessive taper(?)

Tiger sells cured, tempered, straightened and smoothed Tonkin bamboos from China. He states lengths, weights and spines. He does not state node placement. Price is about $1.40 and up delivered in the USA.

Tiger's hex shafts are assembled of six pieces like a fish pole. Sold by length, diameter, weight and spine. delivered price is about $2.44 each piece USA.

Mayhill, Kashi and Tiger shafts appear to be targeted to the field archer. They should prove useful to those archers as well as those shooting bows at least #55 or 60. Suggestions to use plastic nocks and lack of node placement indicate their use at targets closer than 50m where loss is likely. Indicated weights are a bit heavy for the target archer especially in competition or at ranges exceeding 50m

Tiger's hex shaft might need further research and development. The beauty of fish poles made by this technique is the artistic staggering of the individual node sections which make up the shaft. Tiger's hexshaft appear to have the nodes grouped together reminiscent of a natural bamboo. The stated weight to spine makes natural bamboo shafts the clear favorite for weight, spine and price.

For myself, and look as I did, there was nothing offered which could produce a 22 gram average weight shaft for target purposes. Even if I ignore the spine stated, all shafts appeared to be overweight for the #40-50 draw weight.

Strong bow types should find the heavy shafts quite perfect, if node placement is unimportant.

anyway i can pride to say i am first designer and producer,very simple story to design the bamboo arrow shafts:each morning when i wash my myself the wash case name is "arrow",suddenly 1 idea go into my mind:i can produce bamboo arrow shafts,then i spend 3-4 month and lot of money to study and reseach bamboo specie and choice best tonkin bamboo and make perfect producing process and start to produce them:first buyer is markhill which i produce use arrow bamboo which is thin and light but easy to broken,then i like strong and stiff tonkin bamboo,and then after 2 years selling.
Kashi start to coy my shafts,i am angry that he copy my arrow shafts,but i leave it finally:to leave something to eat for others,not eat along,that is chinese culture,if i am western people,may be i will go to lawyer to as kashi stop copy,but i thin kthis will watse a lot of moeny and not worth to do it.leave him eat soemthing,at least he is not cheat and get clean money from his work.
above is real story:fill of risk and corage to produce bamboo arrows shafts, i know nothing when i design bamboo arrow shafts including size,weight and spine etc.i know may be i will lose money and time,same story for bamboo fly rod design and producing:risk and corage is always first element when you want to do some new item,lucky 80% of my risk is suceed afterso many years life struggle and effort.

[jchocz]

Mayhill, Kashi and Tiger shafts appear to be targeted to the field archer. They should prove useful to those archers as well as those shooting bows at least #55 or 60. Suggestions to use plastic nocks and lack of node placement indicate their use at targets closer than 50m where loss is likely. Indicated weights are a bit heavy for the target archer especially in competition or at ranges exceeding 50m

For myself, and look as I did, there was nothing offered which could produce a 22 gram average weight shaft for target purposes. Even if I ignore the spine stated, all shafts appeared to be overweight for the #40-50 draw weight.

Sellers (Tiger and others) routinely sell bamboo shafts for bows to 35 lbs. I have the bow 45 lb (Hwarang) and normally shoot at longer distances - more than 50 meters (70 to 120mm) with arrows weighing 25 grams. I have even weaker bows (30 and 35 lb) and thicker (55 and 70 lb) for tuning arrows. I prefer shooting with a bow 45 lb (Hwarang) and 55 lb (Kaya). The lower bows (less than 35 lb) are for children and weak women (really..the competition woman in the Czech use normally the bows from 40 to 45 lb).

The best rule is - the weight of the arrow should be from 8 to 10 grain / lb bow (optimal is 9 grain / lb). Arrow weight 22 grams is suitable for a bow from 35-40 lbs. When you shoot the arrow with a lower weight, the results are microscopic cracks in the core of the bow (wood and bamboo). It reduces the life of the bow. Therefore I recommend - Do not shoot the arrows with weighing less than 8 grain / lb. Shooters fot Flight shooting disciplines confirms that the bow sometimes last only a few shots ... (Sometimes one).

My experience - I suggest you choose bamboo shafts for bows of 5 to 10 lb stronger (working shafts cutting, painting ...). In the first set I bought (Tiger shafts) 300 pieces of 45-50 lbs. At least half allowed to make arrows 20-25 g (29-31 inches) to 35 lb bows. There is problem with a little weight of the shafts because of too thin bamboo walls (lower resistance). I recomand to make the arrows weighing less than 20 grams (only if you do not shoot into the sand ...).

Recommendation - Arrow weight grain set 9 / lb (extends the life of the bow), The SPINE of the finished arrows must be more by 5 to 10 lbs (flight qualities of arrows). The finished arrows are sorted to the sets with weight difference to 1 to 2 grams (3 grams difference is still good).

The difference of weight shafts is very important but Much more important is the weight difference of finished arrows in one set!

[jack farrell]

jchocz; It seems like you have experimented and found the arrows which are comfortable for you. This is good and I do not want to try to change your formula.

But if I buy arrow shafts, I expect them to meet my specifications. Look at the arrows I posted on page 2. Some think that arrows like this are for decoration. Actually they are now about three years old. The original set was 7 arrows, we shoot 6 in our contest and one extra. One arrow was not good enough and finally broke at the fletch node. Jim took the other 6 to Korea to compete with last year. Another arrow broke because the Koreans were using plywood backstops, there was a metal goal post and even a rock wall!

He made a replacement arrow and changed all the fletchings because we shoot every week and they finally got too frayed. You will notice that the fletches are hand cut from goose.

I selected these shafts out of a bundle of about 300 sticks and in fact they are seconds because these were his first arrows. On starting I do not use sticks which weigh more than one gram different than eachother. Sometimes tiny weights are glued under the wood insert nocks or at the point. We then grind down the points so that the finished arrows weigh one or two GRAINS from eachother, not grams.

If I shoot arrows which weigh three grams different, I can tell at only 25M. Never mind 50m.

When I say 22 grams I do not mean the arrow but the shaft. The point and nock add weight.

For a long time I shot 24 gram shafts. But in Korea I noticed that at long distance, it was not the best. So I made a set at 20 grams shafts. These were hard to control at first and then I got used to them and now they shoot the same as the others but shoot flatter at range. They don't break, the bow has not broken and everything is better.

Actually I think that bamboo allows a lighter spine, not heavier. I shoot these arrows on my stick bows and hornbows. No problem.

What I was asking Tiger for privately was raw shafts. He may be grinding too much of the skin off to flatten and sacrifices spine so has to make it up with weight. I will never know if he is unable to sell me some of his raw sticks.

This is what I am trying to say. The details are important to me. The product is far better tuned for me.

[stiventiger]

Mayhill, Kashi and Tiger shafts appear to be targeted to the field archer. They should prove useful to those archers as well as those shooting bows at least #55 or 60. Suggestions to use plastic nocks and lack of node placement indicate their use at targets closer than 50m where loss is likely. Indicated weights are a bit heavy for the target archer especially in competition or at ranges exceeding 50m

For myself, and look as I did, there was nothing offered which could produce a 22 gram average weight shaft for target purposes. Even if I ignore the spine stated, all shafts appeared to be overweight for the #40-50 draw weight.

Sellers (Tiger and others) routinely sell bamboo shafts for bows to 35 lbs. I have the bow 45 lb (Hwarang) and normally shoot at longer distances - more than 50 meters (70 to 120mm) with arrows weighing 25 grams. I have even weaker bows (30 and 35 lb) and thicker (55 and 70 lb) for tuning arrows. I prefer shooting with a bow 45 lb (Hwarang) and 55 lb (Kaya). The lower bows (less than 35 lb) are for children and weak women (really..the competition woman in the Czech use normally the bows from 40 to 45 lb).

The best rule is - the weight of the arrow should be from 8 to 10 grain / lb bow (optimal is 9 grain / lb). Arrow weight 22 grams is suitable for a bow from 35-40 lbs. When you shoot the arrow with a lower weight, the results are microscopic cracks in the core of the bow (wood and bamboo). It reduces the life of the bow. Therefore I recommend - Do not shoot the arrows with weighing less than 8 grain / lb. Shooters fot Flight shooting disciplines confirms that the bow sometimes last only a few shots ... (Sometimes one).

My experience - I suggest you choose bamboo shafts for bows of 5 to 10 lb stronger (working shafts cutting, painting ...). In the first set I bought (Tiger shafts) 300 pieces of 45-50 lbs. At least half allowed to make arrows 20-25 g (29-31 inches) to 35 lb bows. There is problem with a little weight of the shafts because of too thin bamboo walls (lower resistance). I recomand to make the arrows weighing less than 20 grams (only if you do not shoot into the sand ...).

Recommendation - Arrow weight grain set 9 / lb (extends the life of the bow), The SPINE of the finished arrows must be more by 5 to 10 lbs (flight qualities of arrows). The finished arrows are sorted to the sets with weight difference to 1 to 2 grams (3 grams difference is still good).

The difference of weight shafts is very important but Much more important is the weight difference of finished arrows in one set!

YOU ARE SCIENTIST OF ARROW,here we don't think so detail,just for fun or just looking for good feeling when you shoot and choice best feeling arrows for competetion.
,not so many data,it is western people culture;make all into data or scientic analisys and try to make standards,it is very fun
tiger

[stiventiger]

jchocz; It seems like you have experimented and found the arrows which are comfortable for you. This is good and I do not want to try to change your formula.

But if I buy arrow shafts, I expect them to meet my specifications. Look at the arrows I posted on page 2. Some think that arrows like this are for decoration. Actually they are now about three years old. The original set was 7 arrows, we shoot 6 in our contest and one extra. One arrow was not good enough and finally broke at the fletch node. Jim took the other 6 to Korea to compete with last year. Another arrow broke because the Koreans were using plywood backstops, there was a metal goal post and even a rock wall!

He made a replacement arrow and changed all the fletchings because we shoot every week and they finally got too frayed. You will notice that the fletches are hand cut from goose.

I selected these shafts out of a bundle of about 300 sticks and in fact they are seconds because these were his first arrows. On starting I do not use sticks which weigh more than one gram different than eachother. Sometimes tiny weights are glued under the wood insert nocks or at the point. We then grind down the points so that the finished arrows weigh one or two GRAINS from eachother, not grams.

If I shoot arrows which weigh three grams different, I can tell at only 25M. Never mind 50m.

When I say 22 grams I do not mean the arrow but the shaft. The point and nock add weight.

For a long time I shot 24 gram shafts. But in Korea I noticed that at long distance, it was not the best. So I made a set at 20 grams shafts. These were hard to control at first and then I got used to them and now they shoot the same as the others but shoot flatter at range. They don't break, the bow has not broken and everything is better.

Actually I think that bamboo allows a lighter spine, not heavier. I shoot these arrows on my stick bows and hornbows. No problem.

What I was asking Tiger for privately was raw shafts. He may be grinding too much of the skin off to flatten and sacrifices spine so has to make it up with weight. I will never know if he is unable to sell me some of his raw sticks.

This is what I am trying to say. The details are important to me. The product is far better tuned for me.

we get rid of bamboo skin:
1)to let bamboo become very smooth,so,almost nothing resistance when it fly,and bamboo skin will also refuse varnish absorb,so,it look ugly
2)sand out all skin also make it heating uniform:same spine with all direction for 1 shaft,so,this points is more scientic way than japan or korean bamboo shafts making,yes?
3)without bamboo skin is uniform carbonization ,it looks great class colour ,important is spine uniforn,and this points is may be more advanced skill than japan and korean,i don't see them do bamboo shafts with carbonization process,just heat and make them straighten.and make hole to leave air pass.i consider our process is more scientific and advanced ,but many people don't know it

[Orda Khan]

Jack,
Most of the archery I do is field archery, my club is a field club and the maximum distance for traditional is 50m. I realise that flight or target type arrows would be a little more fragile in these situations, but in most circumstances, anything that hits the target should be intact. Our course designers lay courses with all bow types in mind so you can probably imagine the selection of shots.
Whereas I'd love to be as strong as I was when I was younger, I have to face facts and realise that 45 lbs is my limit if I want to avoid injury. Now jchocz has mentioned the formula for matching arrows to bow and this is the formula that I have used and talked about earlier. I generally rounded up to 10 ish with my arrows weighing 400 - 430 grains. These could cope with all the distances from 5m - 50m.
This current set from Mark Hill are going down in number way too fast!! I mentioned previously that some appeared to have chrysals and having worked raw shafts myself, it appears to be caused during straightening. I've done it myself, taking out a kink ... oops, too much.
Anyway, three arrows have snapped hitting the target at 18m. These arrows are 500+ grains, heavier than my own Japonica arrows, they should not be breaking.
Tiger has posted that he switched to tonkin because the original species he used proved too weak, it seems to be the case.
I am quite happy with the four Tiger shafts I have and they make very nice arrows for day to day use.
I agree with you, when purchasing quality shafts for a quality set of arrows, the shafts should be matched, weight, nodes, etc. Likewise it depends on your archery. Shooting target is repetition and minor things become far more important as opposed to field where no two shots are the same.
I don't think too much outer skin is being removed, there are some patches that still remain on one or two shafts.

[Daniel T.]

But if I buy arrow shafts, I expect them to meet my specifications. Look at the arrows I posted on page 2.

If the shafts are somewhat overlength, the nodes at 8" from the nock can be ligned up. Do you allow some tolerance on the placement of the remaining nodes of the shafts?

Daniel

[jack farrell]

Daniel; If one had hundreds and hundreds of shafts from the same field then one could match up all the nodes. This is a luxury I do not have.

So I start by lining up the fletch nodes. I suggested 8" so my leftovers could accommodate arrows for others which are longer than mine. I use 7" which is plenty of space for the fletches and all lashings to clear and not interfere.

As for the other nodes, I just make do.

My own arrows, picky as I am, are inferior to both Japanese and Korean. I have seen a Korean master using a gold scale to weigh his arrows. And I like Tonkin cane which will not pass the spin test without removing excessive amounts of wood.

[Daniel T.]

Thanks!
I have about 100 shafts weighing 27+/- 0.5 grams. Looks like a tolerance of +/- 1 inch makes the difference between like 12 groups of 8 shafts or 5 groups of about 20 shafts.
I will probably group align the middle node because that is were they bend most when shot. I am curious to see how it works, but given my beginner's technique I am not sure I will be able to tell.

Daniel

[stiventiger]

But if I buy arrow shafts, I expect them to meet my specifications. Look at the arrows I posted on page 2.

If the shafts are somewhat overlength, the nodes at 8" from the nock can be ligned up. Do you allow some tolerance on the placement of the remaining nodes of the shafts?

Daniel

i have 40000pcs shafts in stock,when i sold them out,i plan to do only 8" at end of nock,but now my stock is 70-80% shafts already make 8" smooth at end of nock.only 20-30% are randonly node placement.

[stiventiger]

Daniel; If one had hundreds and hundreds of shafts from the same field then one could match up all the nodes. This is a luxury I do not have.

So I start by lining up the fletch nodes. I suggested 8" so my leftovers could accommodate arrows for others which are longer than mine. I use 7" which is plenty of space for the fletches and all lashings to clear and not interfere.

As for the other nodes, I just make do.

My own arrows, picky as I am, are inferior to both Japanese and Korean. I have seen a Korean master using a gold scale to weigh his arrows. And I like Tonkin cane which will not pass the spin test without removing excessive amounts of wood.

look,korean make huge money from selling his bamboo arrows,i have less money,he use gold scale,we use just electric scale to weight something.

[stiventiger]

wommmm,i never see many person discuss so detail bamboo arrows in china,china culture is feeling culture,good feeling is standards,western culture is math and doctor culture(open all and analisys all detail),quite fun,but i learn somthing new.and improve my bamboo shafts quality without end:so,you will have great and excite feeling when you shoot bamboo arrows.you are the king!!!

[Daniel T.]

Here is a picture of some Tiger shafts. I have began sorting through the shafts and laying them out by a node. It looks nice and should make some good 30" sets. They don't taper that much, so I have not considered the position of the thicker end.

Sorry for the bad quality of the picture, I took it with my cell phone under poor illumination.

Daniel