Thoughts on making a hungarian hornbow...

[Botondbow]

Peter you dont read precise - i wright " I cant say , fully known about Hun bows "
Your motivation about Hun bows is your personaly desire and i respect this.Like others must respect mi decision.
Ponty bow is good example, whi i dont show bow like this or maybe better but not that , like i think. And your reaction is- show us more- very interesting...Only if you see in handle/or ears.../ part, you must know about this bow all. Nothing interesting.

Dusan, mea maxima culpa I did not read carefully your post!

[Ponty]

Hi there, Dusan what do you mean by
"Only if you see in handle/or ears.../ part, you must know about this bow all. Nothing interesting."
Thanks.

[Dusan]

Ponty , sorry for hard words . Every part of your bow is bad... I am tired explain avery new pretendent bad criticizm. Please see clearly in museum pics, Some Atarnos bows pics and you must see all. Flat horn, big handle vith "sandwich" polyester manner glued, ears...
Well , maybe you like him...Maybe i am so traditional in mi mind.

[Ponty]

Dusan, thank you for your info, but please keep in mind that I'm not a bowyer and I'd like to learn how to make a really good comosite bow.
Now, you're saying that every part of my bow is bad.
Could you please educate me on why, how can I improve it?
I did not use any polyester, everything is natural and glued with natural glue.
What is wrong with the flat horn, big handle and long ears? What is the reason for the long siyah's on the Hun bow?

[Dusan]

Ponty i understand that you dont use polyester . This in long debate . Please read more in Atarnet sources , buy Adams book. Her is everithing what you need. If you glued vith natural glue wood plate vith horn plate an lay some sinew - its not nececery be a good hornbow. Every this genialy veapon have ovn laws and princips and you must teach sources.Atarn is the right place.

[Ponty]

Ponty i understand that you dont use polyester . This in long debate . Please read more in Atarnet sources , buy Adams book. Her is everithing what you need. If you glued vith natural glue wood plate vith horn plate an lay some sinew - its not nececery be a good hornbow. Every this genialy veapon have ovn laws and princips and you must teach sources.Atarn is the right place.

I understand, and thank you for the info, but I hope you also understand my curiosity here.
You see I as I new member ( and probably other member)thought, that this is a forum where we discuss and help each other, ask question from more experienced people, and I hope you'd understand if I honestly ask for an explanation when you state that "every part of my bow is bad".
Why, what's wrong with it?
Thanks and I highly appreciate the answers.

[Botondbow]

Ponty,

I've got Adam's brilliant book which gives a lot of help and guidance (strongly recommended); however please do not forget it's about Turkish bows. Several parts of the book can be usable for building Hun bows but the Hun construction is different!
Bear in mind that doing something is quite different than speaking about or criticizing something! Should you be able to read between the lines you?ll understand it.
You first bow is very promising and if it gives you satisfaction you?ve achieved the first stage!
Show some other pictures of your bow (braced and unbraced, not only in drawing stage) and some expert might give you useful advice!
I'm a greenhorn but I'll share my limited experience with you!

Never give up and keep going!

[jack farrell]

Ponty and Botondbow; I find Dusan a keen observer but totally lacking in diplomacy. You two are hung on his lack of diplomacy but have not gone to the sources here at ATARN.

You have not asked; "What are the various remains of Hunn era bows? And how were they constructed?" "What does the larger circle of Hunn culture contain?"

These are the questions which will answer design problems.

I would also say do not copy bows from Hungary. You will be copying copies. Instead, rediscover the original shapes for yourself. Therein will be your discoveries.

I would rather shoot a bow that I had made than any other. So whatever your level of accomplishment, you are in an elite group.

[Dusan]

Thank you Jack . Mi diplomacy is very torture in mi profesional live. Here i loose- maybe more than needed /Anyway mi bad anglish i use mostly in inevitable quick information /

[Ponty]

Ponty and Botondbow; I find Dusan a keen observer but totally lacking in diplomacy. You two are hung on his lack of diplomacy but have not gone to the sources here at ATARN.

You have not asked; "What are the various remains of Hunn era bows? And how were they constructed?" "What does the larger circle of Hunn culture contain?"

These are the questions which will answer design problems.

I would also say do not copy bows from Hungary. You will be copying copies. Instead, rediscover the original shapes for yourself. Therein will be your discoveries.

I would rather shoot a bow that I had made than any other. So whatever your level of accomplishment, you are in an elite group.

Hi Jack.
Thanks for the nice words, advice and understanding, but I think you'd agree with me that if I state that something that you do or did is bad and I don't give you and explanation for it, that has nothing to do with diplomacy.
I felt like a little school boy, who doesn't know 2+2, and yes this is my first bow that did not brake and shoots good, build at least 12 so far, and I did not copy any other bow.
That's why I stated on my very first posting that it might not be built the right way.
Maybe this forum isn't really for me, beginners.....Thanks anyway....
All the best.

[Botondbow]

Ponty and Botondbow; I find Dusan a keen observer but totally lacking in diplomacy. You two are hung on his lack of diplomacy but have not gone to the sources here at ATARN.

You have not asked; "What are the various remains of Hunn era bows? And how were they constructed?" "What does the larger circle of Hunn culture contain?"

These are the questions which will answer design problems.

I would also say do not copy bows from Hungary. You will be copying copies. Instead, rediscover the original shapes for yourself. Therein will be your discoveries.

I would rather shoot a bow that I had made than any other. So whatever your level of accomplishment, you are in an elite group.

Jack,

Thanks for also your nice and placating words! However, please let me reply for some points.
I?m pretty sure that everyone here is in possession of the knowledge that Hunn bows are (might be) different from HUN (Hungarian) bows. I would not go into details but the gap is at least 300 years.

Just to avoid any misunderstanding, the era (roughly between 9th and 11th century) and the type of bow what now I?m talking about is the HUN (Hungarian) bow based on finds (ear and grip bone plats) found in the historical part of Hungary.

That?s why your sentence is a little be confusing and I don?t know what do you mean by ??I would also say do not copy bows from Hungary?.

If it generally means that copy of any existing replicas made by any Hungarian bowyers, well?I can accept it but having know nearly all bowyers? products in my country I can prove that we all blaze different trails resulting our bows are different. Consequently you might mean (I guess) that nobody (more than ten folks in Hungary) has built original (close to authentic) and efficient replica.

On the other hand, if your statement means that it doesn?t make sense to build a HUN replica because the archeological finds (proportions) would never provide solution an efficient HUN replica; well I can argue with it!

I?m sure you did mean different please explain me.

Finally, should someone show me an efficient presently existing (no finds e.g. MB) HUN replica - made by a non-Hungarian bowyer - which is in line with the following characteristic (and accepted by ATARN community) I would appreciate!

Proportions iaw. average HUN grave finds:

Rigid ear (bone plate):
- length: between 22-25cm
- width: 1,5-2,4cm
- thickness: 2-4mm
Grip (bone plate):
- length: between 13-18cm
- width: 2-3,8cm
- thickness: 2-4mm

Grip-limb reflex: between 170-126?
Ear-limb reflex: between 30-45?
Limbs total length: between 80-95cm

I understand that you may have discussed this topic several times and you are tired to always explain which the best construction of a HUN bow is but I did not find existing reference (replica). Maybe I was not exhaustive or precise enough!

Please understand me; I?d like only to build an authentic and efficient HUN bow. Being an evaluation program head, my daily task is to compare and assess the outcome with standards (requirements) maybe I?m too pragmatic and after six horn bows I made, a general statement saying that everything is bad (no way to do) without providing (proving) a good example - is not acceptable for me! I hope my composition caused by my poor English does not hurt anyone here and you've got my points.

Peter

[Dusan]

Peter, you probably dont understand me and Jacks repley. For miself i can say( i cant talk for both) i dont wright only about Hun /many tribes/ or tribes who creat Magyars nation, but about global world and principes static ear hornbows.
Exist some basic principes ( about horn shape, wood shape, joints stile , angels , material waight etc.) who is close to all tipe bows ! Only after understanding this facts - i think - one can start thinking about making very real replica based on (best choice) very concret archeological bow finds .
I believe , you after making some bows understand this principes. But i see some people who evan after fue bows dont understand nothing...

Now some mi thinkigs about Hun or Magyars bows. Mi opinion is- dont orientation only in archeoligical finds fromm Magayr teritory ! Open your minds, see more in teritory where Hun tribes and Magyar tribes from .(400 years history diference ...)
I think very importand for understanding is word - Tribe.

I think - every bow is more and les - original. In big civilisation exist somthing like uniformity about best disain - todays known like Tatar,Indian Crab or indopersian , bows, but in tribes army must be very big diferences armour- bows etc.
Origin Huns motherland was somwhere in Mongolia /China steps. If you intersting about oldest Hun bow - its here. But Huns (like about 600 years later Mongol army) galloping in west gluing like big snowball many other tribes , nations, skin colors, what you want ... Same vith bows. Than you must search in archeological finds in all that way -from Mongolia to Ukraina.

Same problem but in ?shorter?teritory is vith Pechenyegh, Kumans, Polovets- old turcic tribes from Chazars empire who late transmited to ?Magyars?.Your teritory for observation is from Kaukaz cros Ukraina... Not only Hungaria findings.

One must be litlle crazy from so many archeologicala findings . Too much historical selected work is before you.
What period of Huns or what ?part ? of Huns army is ?that? Huns ?
What bow from ?Magyars? you interested ? That from many tribes /Chazars empir / , or bows from about 850 when this ?Arp?d?tribes was fighting vith Bisantinian against Bulgars , or that bows , when this tribes first time come to Dunai and Tisa pusta(890 cca) ? Or later /about 1300 , when first time we know about nation name ?Magyar? ?/ , but i thing that this time Magyars very quickly forget his bows...
And dont forget still big Turcic bows inluences... ugh, seriouz portion of work. Good luck.

[Adam Karpowicz]

I think the main problem one sees in the Magyar reconstructions are the massive transitions between the ears and the bending limbs. Is there any evidence these places were so thick? The original siyah bone finds give no indication of the thickness in these places (from the article on ATARN on Magyar bows). I also understand the angle between the limb and siyah comes from the MB finds.

I am also interested why the lenght of the limbs has to be 80-95cm (as per Peter's measurements). Then the total length of bow was 160-190cm. The computer reconstructions from the ATARN article are much shorter. It seems to me the bows were no more than 120cm long - really close to the "Turkish" length.

I believe the Hun/Mongol/Magyar style of bow with non-contact recurves has the potential to be very efficient. Recently, I spliced straight wooden siyahs to a failed Turkish bow limbs and was very pleased with the result.

Adam

[Orda Khan]

For an early Hunnic example, do a search for Kotan bow, there is even a replica of this bow made by Grozer. There are many more examples with measurements and reconstructive drawings such as Niya.

[Botondbow]

I think the main problem one sees in the Magyar reconstructions are the massive transitions between the ears and the bending limbs. Is there any evidence these places were so thick? The original siyah bone finds give no indication of the thickness in these places (from the article on ATARN on Magyar bows). I also understand the angle between the limb and siyah comes from the MB finds.

I am also interested why the lenght of the limbs has to be 80-95cm (as per Peter's measurements). Then the total length of bow was 160-190cm. The computer reconstructions from the ATARN article are much shorter. It seems to me the bows were no more than 120cm long - really close to the "Turkish" length.

I believe the Hun/Mongol/Magyar style of bow with non-contact recurves has the potential to be very efficient. Recently, I spliced straight wooden siyahs to a failed Turkish bow limbs and was very pleased with the result.

Adam

Adam,

I really appreciate your comment!

Under the proportions I wrote (might cause the misunderstanding):
?Limbs total length: between 80-95cm? means that the average HUN bow length is 124cm (80 + 2*22cm ears) but never longer than 145cm (95+ 2*25cm).

Concerning the massive transitions between the ears and the bending limbs, I?ve got to say that e.g. Sandor Paku?s HUN bows have a quite narrow and thin transition (it can not be reduced without bow damage). That?s why the general statements (HUN bows) should not be used 'case it depends on the bow.
I?ve also reduced the transitions of my bows (accepted Mr Paku?s previous advice). They are under seasoning now but I can upload some pics if requested.

Finally, I?m glad to hear your opinion that non-contact recurve bows may have the potential to be very efficient!

Respectfully,

Peter