Horns perfect for making a horn bow on Ebay,,only 32.5 USD a pair, by the way, 12 hours left only......better get herry!!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 09670&rd=1
yokhua
Horns on ebay,,
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yokhua
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jack farrell
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Bede
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Stephen Selby
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jack farrell
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I can only guess and say Sable. Coincedently there was a wildlife display just the other day.
Breaking news: Do you all remember those Ibex horns that I am working into an Egyptian Angular bow? The first surprise is that both the Cretan wild goat and the Nubian Ibex horns are almost black inside. This was quite a surprise as they are all quite pale outside. There is also surprisingly little usable horn. The hole in the center goes almost to the tip. The inside of the curve is even worse. There is just barely enough material to get one thin, narrow slat from the outside curve. However, the horn is extremely flexible, much more than W. Buffalo. A thin scrap can be easily tied into a knot. This consistency reminds me of African Watusi Longhorn. Sooner or later an experiment in Persian bowmaking seems appropriate what with all the long oblique scraps. Am sinewing this weekend. Will post pic soon. -j-
Breaking news: Do you all remember those Ibex horns that I am working into an Egyptian Angular bow? The first surprise is that both the Cretan wild goat and the Nubian Ibex horns are almost black inside. This was quite a surprise as they are all quite pale outside. There is also surprisingly little usable horn. The hole in the center goes almost to the tip. The inside of the curve is even worse. There is just barely enough material to get one thin, narrow slat from the outside curve. However, the horn is extremely flexible, much more than W. Buffalo. A thin scrap can be easily tied into a knot. This consistency reminds me of African Watusi Longhorn. Sooner or later an experiment in Persian bowmaking seems appropriate what with all the long oblique scraps. Am sinewing this weekend. Will post pic soon. -j-
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Alam ed Din, Adnan
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jack farrell
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Alam; The temptation to use watussi horn was so great because of the price. $5 for a perfect, smooth horn sheath. I bought several. But when cut, the horn had many splits between the layers. The horn could be delaminated by hand! Some narrow strips were obtained such that three made a limb width. The horn is fantastically flexible. But I would not do it again. Some of those cold weather Hungarian cattle would be very tempting.
Nevertheless, a shootable bow was obtained.
Alam, here is my big jag. If one is going to go to all the trouble to make a repro of an ancient artifact, taking months of effort, to make something that might last a lifetime, wouldn't the most authentic materials be the most desirable? There is no doubting that water buffalo and Hard rock maple make a perfect bow but just how authentic is this? Doesn't Klopsteg state cattle horn? Doesn't Arab archery say goat horns? What horn does Unsal mention? Any other sources?
It is recognized that maple was a choice of Turkish archers. What is Turkish maple like? Is it like North American Rock maple? -j-
Nevertheless, a shootable bow was obtained.
Alam, here is my big jag. If one is going to go to all the trouble to make a repro of an ancient artifact, taking months of effort, to make something that might last a lifetime, wouldn't the most authentic materials be the most desirable? There is no doubting that water buffalo and Hard rock maple make a perfect bow but just how authentic is this? Doesn't Klopsteg state cattle horn? Doesn't Arab archery say goat horns? What horn does Unsal mention? Any other sources?
It is recognized that maple was a choice of Turkish archers. What is Turkish maple like? Is it like North American Rock maple? -j-
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Alam ed Din, Adnan
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Thank you, Jack.
You are right in what you say about authentic materials. Nevertheless I find watussi horn tempting because its size, price and availiability. At the moment I am building a turkish bow, using buffalo horn strips. But I read as well that sometimes cattle horn was being used. So I am eager to try this one as well.
I am not sure if Turks used Hungarian grey cattle, but it might be so. There seems to be some difference between tropical horn and those from temperate climate zones. Its very hard to get hold of Hungarian grey cattle horn. They are only about 4000 left and they are being raised in hungarian national parks,where they are almost a symbol of the Hungarian nation like the bald eagle in the US.... It's interesting that you mentioned rock maple as it is
what I am using. I suspect that ancient bowyers in Turkey used tataric maple(acer tataricum) because Klopstek states that out of one felled maple tree only two bows can be made. The common field maple and mountain mable both develope large stems which is why they are still commercially used today.Tataric maple is also found in Turkey and the Balkans but it doesn't develop any larger stem that would have commercial value these days. I found it near impossible to find. Yes, I was offered a small piece by an American dealer who got it from Holland....Please if you know any source of this wood, please let me know. I know that it grows in large parts of Ohio where it was intrduced.
So,you know...sometimes its hard not to substitute one thing for another.....but the plan and the wish to use authentic materials is there.
Salaam
You are right in what you say about authentic materials. Nevertheless I find watussi horn tempting because its size, price and availiability. At the moment I am building a turkish bow, using buffalo horn strips. But I read as well that sometimes cattle horn was being used. So I am eager to try this one as well.
I am not sure if Turks used Hungarian grey cattle, but it might be so. There seems to be some difference between tropical horn and those from temperate climate zones. Its very hard to get hold of Hungarian grey cattle horn. They are only about 4000 left and they are being raised in hungarian national parks,where they are almost a symbol of the Hungarian nation like the bald eagle in the US.... It's interesting that you mentioned rock maple as it is
what I am using. I suspect that ancient bowyers in Turkey used tataric maple(acer tataricum) because Klopstek states that out of one felled maple tree only two bows can be made. The common field maple and mountain mable both develope large stems which is why they are still commercially used today.Tataric maple is also found in Turkey and the Balkans but it doesn't develop any larger stem that would have commercial value these days. I found it near impossible to find. Yes, I was offered a small piece by an American dealer who got it from Holland....Please if you know any source of this wood, please let me know. I know that it grows in large parts of Ohio where it was intrduced.
So,you know...sometimes its hard not to substitute one thing for another.....but the plan and the wish to use authentic materials is there.
Salaam
Last edited by Alam ed Din, Adnan on Fri Sep 23, 2005 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Alam
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jack farrell
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Alam; There is a source for Ibex in Germany, I found him on a google search. The price is not excessive as they are looking for trophy material and those with broken knobs are greatly discounted. For bow making the knobs are cut off anyway. Ibex are coming back. They are being reintroduced and they take well to marginal places. Their real pressure is from hunting. But they also do not live so long and when they die....
Is it possible to ID the species of ancient Turkish cattle?
Idea 3. I believe that in Romania, Bulgaria and places like Belarus, oxen are still used as draft animals. Some might have good horns as these are cold weather places. What do you think?
I will look into your maple. Where there is a will, there is a way. -j-
Is it possible to ID the species of ancient Turkish cattle?
Idea 3. I believe that in Romania, Bulgaria and places like Belarus, oxen are still used as draft animals. Some might have good horns as these are cold weather places. What do you think?
I will look into your maple. Where there is a will, there is a way. -j-
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AxelKuester
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redhawk
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horns on ebay....
hi Axel,one source is:www.tierpraeparation.de
but tell them exactly what you need,better is to tell them what you will not accept.
but tell them exactly what you need,better is to tell them what you will not accept.
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Alam ed Din, Adnan
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Jack
I have written a letter to the Cattle Breeders' Associations of Turkey in order to find out more about ancient turkish longhorn cattle breeds. Let's see what they have to say. However, there was a lot of trade in the ottoman empire and the empire itself was gigantic, so it will be difficult to pinpoint the source unless we have an old text that says more about the breed.....
I will check on what kind of cattle is being used by the Hungarian minority in Romania and Bulgaria....but with the present gas prices it will be quiet costly to drive there in order to get the horns and there isn't a real infrastructure like internet access......etc. Those areas are quiet remote....
Meanwhile, what about texan longhorn breeds. Didn't they decend from European breeds? What about the quality of the horn? I found out that the DNA of cattle in Europe had no admixture with the local auroxs and all the modern European breeds decend from the near east and middle east. If you look at it this way you can't really mess a lot with authenticity.(joking)
African cattle decends from a different race alltogether, a sort of wild ox that roamed the Sahara(maybe like the Indian gaur) when it wasn't a desert.Later, African cattle breeds where crossbred with the Indian zebu breeds resulting in the east African hump backed breeds.That might explain the difference in the quality of the horn.
Concerning ibex:
Is the source(www.tierpraeparation.de) of redhawk the same as yours?
I have found this source(german)which sells different species of ibex(also Nubian ibex),goat horns, mufflon......etc. Here the link:
[/url] http://www.krampusmania.at/wbb2/board.p ... 1824741ed8
salaam
I have written a letter to the Cattle Breeders' Associations of Turkey in order to find out more about ancient turkish longhorn cattle breeds. Let's see what they have to say. However, there was a lot of trade in the ottoman empire and the empire itself was gigantic, so it will be difficult to pinpoint the source unless we have an old text that says more about the breed.....
I will check on what kind of cattle is being used by the Hungarian minority in Romania and Bulgaria....but with the present gas prices it will be quiet costly to drive there in order to get the horns and there isn't a real infrastructure like internet access......etc. Those areas are quiet remote....
Meanwhile, what about texan longhorn breeds. Didn't they decend from European breeds? What about the quality of the horn? I found out that the DNA of cattle in Europe had no admixture with the local auroxs and all the modern European breeds decend from the near east and middle east. If you look at it this way you can't really mess a lot with authenticity.(joking)
African cattle decends from a different race alltogether, a sort of wild ox that roamed the Sahara(maybe like the Indian gaur) when it wasn't a desert.Later, African cattle breeds where crossbred with the Indian zebu breeds resulting in the east African hump backed breeds.That might explain the difference in the quality of the horn.
Concerning ibex:
Is the source(www.tierpraeparation.de) of redhawk the same as yours?
I have found this source(german)which sells different species of ibex(also Nubian ibex),goat horns, mufflon......etc. Here the link:
[/url] http://www.krampusmania.at/wbb2/board.p ... 1824741ed8
salaam
Alam
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Bede
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One thing that might be worth considering regarding the word "cattle". In English it is a generic term for bovines. It would in normal use include water buffalo as well as normal European cattle and brahmins.
In some of the Chinese literature I have seen, there is no distinction made between ordinary cattle and water buffalo.
I have been told that there is evidence of water buffalo in Mesopotamia, ancient Iraq, going back to the times of the early city states. Even the Ancient Egyptians could have imported it.
In some of the Chinese literature I have seen, there is no distinction made between ordinary cattle and water buffalo.
I have been told that there is evidence of water buffalo in Mesopotamia, ancient Iraq, going back to the times of the early city states. Even the Ancient Egyptians could have imported it.
Bede
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Alam ed Din, Adnan
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Bede
Sorry, I am not very knowlegeable in English language. It isn't my native
tongue. I didn't want to include buffalo and bison when I used the term cattle. What I meant was only bovus taurus species (cow).
In other places, such as the Arab peninsula and India they distinct very well between the two species. In India most of the milk sold in pouches is produced by waterbuffalo.But it is not favoured by the people. They say it makes ones mind dull and produces sloth(&mucus) and aggression whilst the milk of cows(bos taurus indica)is only benficial. This may be due to the high fat content of buffalo milk...... On the other hand, people have observed, that a buffalo will walk on top of a sleeping person by the roadside(breaking his bones), while a cow will walk carefully around such a person.At last a crossbreed between cow and buffalo, if successfull at all, will become infertile. All this may have inspired the people of the region to draw distinctive line between the two animals.
The reason why we are discussing cows is that its use in bows has been
stated. We are trying to identify the cow species that delivered that kind
of high quality horn. Do you have anything on that Bede?
salaam
Sorry, I am not very knowlegeable in English language. It isn't my native
tongue. I didn't want to include buffalo and bison when I used the term cattle. What I meant was only bovus taurus species (cow).
In other places, such as the Arab peninsula and India they distinct very well between the two species. In India most of the milk sold in pouches is produced by waterbuffalo.But it is not favoured by the people. They say it makes ones mind dull and produces sloth(&mucus) and aggression whilst the milk of cows(bos taurus indica)is only benficial. This may be due to the high fat content of buffalo milk...... On the other hand, people have observed, that a buffalo will walk on top of a sleeping person by the roadside(breaking his bones), while a cow will walk carefully around such a person.At last a crossbreed between cow and buffalo, if successfull at all, will become infertile. All this may have inspired the people of the region to draw distinctive line between the two animals.
The reason why we are discussing cows is that its use in bows has been
stated. We are trying to identify the cow species that delivered that kind
of high quality horn. Do you have anything on that Bede?
salaam
Alam
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jack farrell
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- Location: Texas
Alam and all; Texas has all kinds of cattle. Some breeders are careful to keep only "pure breeds" or maybe special cross breeds and others find it beneficial to constantly introduce new breeds into their herds. There is negligible trade in horns here. However, I am sure they can be had. But experimenting by making a bow is a painful experience. It would be easy to simply cut the horns and see what happens. Cattle have been imported here from Africa and India and presumably from all over the world for more than 150 years. The first imported cattle were Castillian black cattle, about the early 1700s.
The horn needn't be that long if you consider the length of a Turkish bow, so "Long horn Cattle" may not be necessary. Don't limit the scope of the search.
Ibex have been introduced to New Mexico, a state of the USA, with enough success to now allow limited hunting. I have not seen any for sale.
I discarded the German Ibex info but he was partners with Tierschadle, something like that. Could have been even Tien Shan Ibex species.
Archeologist Shelly Wachsmann asserts that there were waterbuffalos being introduced into Mesopotamia at the time of King Tut. There is elaborate proof that the Egyptians were importing Ibex for bowmaking after over hunting their own.-j-
The horn needn't be that long if you consider the length of a Turkish bow, so "Long horn Cattle" may not be necessary. Don't limit the scope of the search.
Ibex have been introduced to New Mexico, a state of the USA, with enough success to now allow limited hunting. I have not seen any for sale.
I discarded the German Ibex info but he was partners with Tierschadle, something like that. Could have been even Tien Shan Ibex species.
Archeologist Shelly Wachsmann asserts that there were waterbuffalos being introduced into Mesopotamia at the time of King Tut. There is elaborate proof that the Egyptians were importing Ibex for bowmaking after over hunting their own.-j-