Anyway, I am not intending to open an arrow making business, I just do traditional style archery for fun, shoot a couple of arrows after work. Its just that on your ebay store, I notice you sell bamboo shafts in 100 pieces. In all honesty, I don't know what to do with so many shafts, since its for personal use and I don?t really need so many. My intention (idea) is to get my local archery store to choose the shafts when I get them and ask them to make the arrows up for me. (Points, nocks, feathers). Maybe 30 arrows or something. I don't suppose you will sell ready made arrows one day?
In the past I used the 'apparently proper modern method' for matching arrows. (i.e match spine and so on). At one point I was using Easton Powerflight Carbon arrows with 5' plastic vanes, but I find my shots were never consistent and go all over the place plus the vanes keep popping up (the vane left of the cock vane) and keep cutting my thumb knuckle (re-fletching plastic vanes gets on my nerves).
So, one day, I just told my local archery shop, to make me some wooden 32' inch arrows with feathers (shaft is german cedar, feather is Turkey). I didn't even ask about the weight or ask it to be 'spined'. I tried them after I got them, and all my arrows are grouping and landing well, and most importantly no more cuts on my thumb knuckle. After that, I was, 'So much for scientific approach' when choosing arrows. I shot my old Easton Powerflight carbon arrows alongside these wooden arrows to see if its an arrow problem or not, and my carbon arrow are very erratic in where they land. The only thing I don?t like about wooden arrows is my points get stuck in my target when I pull out the arrows (I blame it on my archery shop, with their ow quality aradite, I now re-glue them using 3 ton epoxy)
So, with my good impression using wooden arrows, I thought of trying other traditional materials like Bamboo. While, I'm a medical scientist by profession, I'm not so hard up about the science of arrow shafts after my above experience. I guess its all about being intuitive and 'feeling' if its right. The intuitive approach I would say is a 'traditional' way of doing things. I also do understand for natural materials its very hard to 'standardized'. If it feels right when I shoot, its good enough for me. Traditional mindset for traditional style archery, I guess.
However, that being said, I think, if one is a seller, I feel, no matter how superior a product is, if the consumer (buyer) doesn't get what he/she wants, they will not buy it no matter how good the product is. To give an example, Apple makes ipad,ipods and i-whatevers, and although there are many other products which are more superior, it?s the ipads and whatever that are making money, and not the other non-apple products. It is not so much how good apple products are (I personally won?t buy apple stuff :-p) but apple knows how to target consumer perceptions and make them ?feel good?. Feel good being the key word here.
I think an important point in targeting a 'western' base market, is they want to see things like uniformity, +/- deviation of grain, weight so on and so forth. These are the things 'most' buyers want to see (might not be all). I think people like to see numbers and figures to gauge a product, instead of a try and buy intuitive approach.
*Edited 28 Nov 2010: Removed direct video links to my photobucket account since Tiger has seen the videos and the links to the videos on YOUTUBE are posted in previous post.
Bamboo arrow debate
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stiventiger
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stiventiger
- Posts: 323
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compare tiger shafts and japanese bamboo arrow making
after see some links of japanese bamboo shafts making video,i have below idea:
1)material:
first we must make seletion to choice all in natural tonkin bamboo straight,japanese as if not make selection(it is very very important)and their bamboo wall is thinner(easy to broken)
2)we sand bamboo skin out:use machine and a little hand to adjust it,1 minutes we can do 5-10 pcs,japanese sand 1 pcs use 10-30 minutes,and machine sand are more avarage and hand sand is very boring work and easy to make some thick and some thinner.
3)heating way:japanese may be use 1000years ago way,heat them inside the hole and without carbonation process,we first heat them inside sand and must be passed in carbon stove:that is most important:to make spine uniform,ja[anese way can't make it uniform heating and their spine is not uniform,as their temperture is too higher:easy to broken when shoot,we use lower temperature and long time heating to make bamboo fibre very stiff and uniforn spine( to fly directly at target)
3) 1 japanese always make straighten when he do the process,we make 4-5times hand straighten on concentrate time,no necessary always straighten,as bamboo have relect forcemhis way is wasting his enough and time and not good results(somebady tell me they always make starighten again before each shoot,our ahsft no necessary,just shoot and after some month ,may be straighten 1 time if weather is too humid)
4)japanese make 1 hole from end to top to use heated iron stick,we never do this way,this way ill let shafts become weak when many times shoot,may be you can crash the shaft just by shoes,our shafts each nodes is close:very very hard to anti heavy crash and pressing
5)japanese do bamboo shafts only 1 person,we have 8-10 person,each person do 1 process,like first staright,sand the skin,second and third,each process we have each worker,japanese way is very easy to get tired,we don't and each person become this process expert after many times repeat work.
6)japanese paiting is hand painting,we rpint our logo or another pattern use machine,his way need 10 minutes,our machine print just less 1 second
7)our bamboo process use a lot of machine and modern processinstead of hand :to keep stable quality and japanese way need minimum 10-20 years and it is belong to family business and very histroy and 1000 years ago way.no modern way at all,even old way is not scientific.
8)japanese salalry is very higher,of course such slowly 100% hand work will cost much money than chinese modern and faster produce process.
japanese way:1 prson may be produce 5-10-30 pcs/day,chinese way:1 chinese can do 100-200-300pcs/day is poosible
so,i think our shafts is better spine uniforn(fly very directly line at long distance) and very stiff(repeat time shoot no damage) than japanese bamboo shafts,(not uniforn spine and very weak shaft,you must shoot them must with most carefull:not shoot at rock or hard wood for breaking)
of course our price is much better than japanese:1/20th compare with japanese bamboo shafts.i worry their bamboo shafts will finish business if they permit me to sell into japanese market(they protect themself) and korean way is almost 99% copy japanese way.
i think japanese should copy my way if they want to continue survive on making bamboo shafts.
1)material:
first we must make seletion to choice all in natural tonkin bamboo straight,japanese as if not make selection(it is very very important)and their bamboo wall is thinner(easy to broken)
2)we sand bamboo skin out:use machine and a little hand to adjust it,1 minutes we can do 5-10 pcs,japanese sand 1 pcs use 10-30 minutes,and machine sand are more avarage and hand sand is very boring work and easy to make some thick and some thinner.
3)heating way:japanese may be use 1000years ago way,heat them inside the hole and without carbonation process,we first heat them inside sand and must be passed in carbon stove:that is most important:to make spine uniform,ja[anese way can't make it uniform heating and their spine is not uniform,as their temperture is too higher:easy to broken when shoot,we use lower temperature and long time heating to make bamboo fibre very stiff and uniforn spine( to fly directly at target)
3) 1 japanese always make straighten when he do the process,we make 4-5times hand straighten on concentrate time,no necessary always straighten,as bamboo have relect forcemhis way is wasting his enough and time and not good results(somebady tell me they always make starighten again before each shoot,our ahsft no necessary,just shoot and after some month ,may be straighten 1 time if weather is too humid)
4)japanese make 1 hole from end to top to use heated iron stick,we never do this way,this way ill let shafts become weak when many times shoot,may be you can crash the shaft just by shoes,our shafts each nodes is close:very very hard to anti heavy crash and pressing
5)japanese do bamboo shafts only 1 person,we have 8-10 person,each person do 1 process,like first staright,sand the skin,second and third,each process we have each worker,japanese way is very easy to get tired,we don't and each person become this process expert after many times repeat work.
6)japanese paiting is hand painting,we rpint our logo or another pattern use machine,his way need 10 minutes,our machine print just less 1 second
7)our bamboo process use a lot of machine and modern processinstead of hand :to keep stable quality and japanese way need minimum 10-20 years and it is belong to family business and very histroy and 1000 years ago way.no modern way at all,even old way is not scientific.
8)japanese salalry is very higher,of course such slowly 100% hand work will cost much money than chinese modern and faster produce process.
japanese way:1 prson may be produce 5-10-30 pcs/day,chinese way:1 chinese can do 100-200-300pcs/day is poosible
so,i think our shafts is better spine uniforn(fly very directly line at long distance) and very stiff(repeat time shoot no damage) than japanese bamboo shafts,(not uniforn spine and very weak shaft,you must shoot them must with most carefull:not shoot at rock or hard wood for breaking)
of course our price is much better than japanese:1/20th compare with japanese bamboo shafts.i worry their bamboo shafts will finish business if they permit me to sell into japanese market(they protect themself) and korean way is almost 99% copy japanese way.
i think japanese should copy my way if they want to continue survive on making bamboo shafts.
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Daniel
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You have made some valid points J-Boom. I like what you have said about "natural materials being hard to standardize" I think that is the key for both Korean and Japanese arrow making approach. Heritage is one thing, but honestly, where there is money involved there is always tendency to go short cuts (like using electric sanders) to speed up the process, still keeping quality very high. And that is fine as long as the product turns ok. If it doesn't, than I don't think such craftsman would stay in business for long time. I don't have much experience with bamboo, but have been making wood arrows for quite some time (and much of this time with no plastics involved at all). All I can say is that nothing bits "50 points inspection" (like my girlfriend used to say:) that is this many time single shafts is being handled and work on before it is finished arrow. During that working time I have pretty big chance to detect any "inperfections" such as microcracks, missed growth rings etc. I can either fix it or discard it.
I am not saying that modern machine approach is wrong, what I'am saying that more is not necessary better. That might be the reason why those "one man business craftsman" tend to turn out better products.
Keep up the good work.
I am not saying that modern machine approach is wrong, what I'am saying that more is not necessary better. That might be the reason why those "one man business craftsman" tend to turn out better products.
Keep up the good work.
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stiventiger
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in a word:Daniel wrote:You have made some valid points J-Boom. I like what you have said about "natural materials being hard to standardize" I think that is the key for both Korean and Japanese arrow making approach. Heritage is one thing, but honestly, where there is money involved there is always tendency to go short cuts (like using electric sanders) to speed up the process, still keeping quality very high. And that is fine as long as the product turns ok. If it doesn't, than I don't think such craftsman would stay in business for long time. I don't have much experience with bamboo, but have been making wood arrows for quite some time (and much of this time with no plastics involved at all). All I can say is that nothing bits "50 points inspection" (like my girlfriend used to say:) that is this many time single shafts is being handled and work on before it is finished arrow. During that working time I have pretty big chance to detect any "inperfections" such as microcracks, missed growth rings etc. I can either fix it or discard it.
I am not saying that modern machine approach is wrong, what I'am saying that more is not necessary better. That might be the reason why those "one man business craftsman" tend to turn out better products.
Keep up the good work.
good arrow:
1)ecomnomic price for 99.9% buyers use
2)cute and beautiful looking like art
3)very stiff for repeat use at least 300times at any target without damage
4) fastest speed and stright fly line at center of target:need uniforn spine and very straight shafts
5)proper weight:no heavy ,no light
our tiger bamboo shafts match above 5 points already
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jack farrell
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Uli
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Orda Khan
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stiventiger
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i think we can do that,just same of end of bamboo shafts position and may be weight is little heavy,if you knwo their price,i guess:35-40$/pc for finsihed bamboo arrows,yes?jack farrell wrote:Thought some would enjoy seeing these eight arrows made in Korea by Choi Geum-dong. They came through Thomas. Length overall is 35 1/2 inches, 435 to 438 grains each.
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Jos?Dom
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stiventiger
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great arrow,they looks no diffirence or very little,but price is sky and ground:Jos?Dom wrote:Jack, great arrows. These are my humble Korean style arrows I made with Tiger's bamboo shafts and pheasant feathers. I like the final result. I used hardwood nocks, sinew and brass points just like the originals.
somebady tell me korean bamboo arrow sell at 60-70$/pc,tiger shafts sell at 1-1.1$/pc at 1000pcs order,and if you do them finished arrows,what is the profit you imaged.
korean bamboo arrow with same longth of nodes and weight,we can do that,but price for shaft:5-6$/pc,if somebady can accpt this price,i can sell him 10000pcs shafts during 2 month.
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Daniel
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Wow, this is impressive! To make a usable wood arrows of this length I'd have to select the best, straight grain, heavy spine shafts available, barrel them and still wouldn't expect to arrive with final SHAFT weigh under 450's !jack farrell wrote:Length overall is 35 1/2 inches, 435 to 438 grains each.
Jose, I like your arrows to!
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jack farrell
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Jose; I love your arrows; you are an artist! Hand carved wood nocks (tastefully done, I might add) and sinew lashings. I notice you have attempted good fletch node placement. Good for you. Was this hard?
The only thing missing from Korean arrows is some cresting. You have painted the area under the fletch red, which sets off the entire arrow nicely.
If you see numbers of used Korean arrows, the owners painted colored rings on the shafts to tell them from those of their competitors. I wonder why the makers have not gotten onto this idea?
They also put dots on their arrows to identify each arrow for eccentricities.
LOA? wt?
The only thing missing from Korean arrows is some cresting. You have painted the area under the fletch red, which sets off the entire arrow nicely.
If you see numbers of used Korean arrows, the owners painted colored rings on the shafts to tell them from those of their competitors. I wonder why the makers have not gotten onto this idea?
They also put dots on their arrows to identify each arrow for eccentricities.
LOA? wt?
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Jos?Dom
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Thanks for the comments!
Jack, I tried my best to copy the Korean style arrows but with my personal touch. Mostly I used the pictures in the Korean book "International traditional bow and arrows of yesterday and today" as samples.
Actually, making these feathers is easy compared to the Turkish arrows with bakkam composite nocks. I used the nock blanks made of hardwood offered in 3Rivers, etc. For safety, I inserted a nail too. I got the idea on this forum!
Then shaping the nock is just saw and sand paper work for perfect look and string placement. A feather burner is very useful. Sinew, glue, paint and varnish are all used in the right way.
You're right, Korean arrows are usually plain. Though there are same samples painted like mine, especially ceremonial arrows. You can see some on that Korean book.
Of course, I got the info about node placement and I thank you for that.
Right now I'm making some So-ya (Japanese war arrows) and I can say these arrows are a little bit easier to make since I use self nocks directly on the bamboo.
About length and weight, this is where I don't follow tradition...
Since I use the Turkish style drawing with short Asian bows including the Korean bows, I use shorter arrows than the traditional 32" Korean arrow. Mine are 30" long and about 500gs. I use bows in the 65/70# so I also prefer heavy arrows even for long distance shooting. That way my bows are less noisy and smoother. I prefer a heavy tuned arrow than a faster arrow that miss.
Jack, I tried my best to copy the Korean style arrows but with my personal touch. Mostly I used the pictures in the Korean book "International traditional bow and arrows of yesterday and today" as samples.
Actually, making these feathers is easy compared to the Turkish arrows with bakkam composite nocks. I used the nock blanks made of hardwood offered in 3Rivers, etc. For safety, I inserted a nail too. I got the idea on this forum!
Then shaping the nock is just saw and sand paper work for perfect look and string placement. A feather burner is very useful. Sinew, glue, paint and varnish are all used in the right way.
You're right, Korean arrows are usually plain. Though there are same samples painted like mine, especially ceremonial arrows. You can see some on that Korean book.
Of course, I got the info about node placement and I thank you for that.
Right now I'm making some So-ya (Japanese war arrows) and I can say these arrows are a little bit easier to make since I use self nocks directly on the bamboo.
About length and weight, this is where I don't follow tradition...
Since I use the Turkish style drawing with short Asian bows including the Korean bows, I use shorter arrows than the traditional 32" Korean arrow. Mine are 30" long and about 500gs. I use bows in the 65/70# so I also prefer heavy arrows even for long distance shooting. That way my bows are less noisy and smoother. I prefer a heavy tuned arrow than a faster arrow that miss.
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stiventiger
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anyway i feel my shafts style is more close to nature:freely and natural and Harmony,less manufature trace:
and japan and korean shafts is more close like mould products:always is same:same weight and same nodes etc,you will sleep if you see them long time,but see my shafts you will feel exciting and full of imagination and as if you will return to live 1000years ago,that is fantastic feeling.
and japan and korean shafts is more close like mould products:always is same:same weight and same nodes etc,you will sleep if you see them long time,but see my shafts you will feel exciting and full of imagination and as if you will return to live 1000years ago,that is fantastic feeling.