Thoughts on making a hungarian hornbow...

[Adam Karpowicz]

Thanks Sandor. I have a couple more questions:

"...the bone plates cover the whole length of the ears.." - how do you determine that? Has any wood of the ears survived?

and:

"...some bone plates suggest that it could be sharp (no curvature at all)..." - Do you have a picture to show these plates?

Adam

[paku]

Adam
The wood has not survived. The statement is based on the presence of scoring at the base of the bone plates. The wrapping of the joint (which runs up on the ears) could not be longer than 3 cm. The real size of the plates could be 1-1,5 cm longer considering the erosion.
On some bone plates the base was not eroded and the plate ends in a sharp angle. On the picture (which was drawn by Sz?llősi G?bor from the originals) I put a line on the right middle ear plate to demonstrate the angle. This suggest that the transition was not rounded and also probably also determines the angle of the ear.
S?ndor

[Dusan]

Some findings from net. Maybe ucefull :

Probably situation from grave (same plates like Paku pic ?)



from Dr.Cs.S?besti?n K?roly book (looks like another bone disain...)















from Sarret udv?ri grave:



Bow dimensions from (i dont know who?) Magyar autor :

[Dusan]

Hun grave findings from Niredhaza4 , Szeged4:



Avar bone :



for compar - some archeological findings from step road ( Chernigov -Ukraina -Mina2) :



Chernigov :



Cherson -Krym :



Chazars findings from Vinogradnoe,Oboznoe,Krasnaya Gorka...




Hun findings vith "naiv bow interpretation" :



Osikinskij Burial :



Russian bowyear reconstruction :

[Dusan]

Straange example Hun bow rec. from Mongol museum :





Some Magyar hornbow reconstruction , what i find. I am apologise, but i dont know name all autors. Maybe Peter or Paku (or Fusizoli...) know more about.



Simon Diordi bow :















Probably Paku shooting vith his bow





Litle compare vith similar disain - Novotnys Yuan bow ...

[Adam Karpowicz]

Thank you both for the pictures. I see what you mean Sandor about the bottom-angled bone pieces. It may be true, but just as well may not be. Some of the fragments do not look worn at the bottom and the bone piece, even angled, could end above the "knee" with the sinew wraps reaching further up the siyah.

On two of Dusan's pictures (from the Karoly book and the Avar bone) the recurve had to be gradual over a large radius, since the bone is so curved. This is a good indication the other bows could have such curve as well, even thogh the bone, as found, was shorter? Has anyone made a bow like that?

Perhaps some of the bows had a sharper curve, as on one of the drawings (if the drawing is indeed of a bow from the same area, since Sandor said the wood did not survive), but still, I do not detect any bone under the wraps at the location of the knee.

I realize knowledgeable people have alredy considered all options. I am interested to know how.

Adam

[paku]

Adam
I think the bone plate was there not only prevent that ear bends to the side but also to support the joint. If we consider that the ears were only seated on the limbs, it is reasonable to think that the bone covered also this area. My view is that the bone went down to the level of the horn. But may be I am wrong.
Dusan
Pictures 5-8 show two of my bows, the upper three are details of an older construction about seven years back and I do not like it any more. The guy is my friend shooting one of the small Magyar constructions.
S?ndor

[Szabi Nagy]

Dusan,

the first drawing is about the findings in the conquest-era cemetery in V?rs, Hungary (just south of lake Balaton). Andras Kosztich made a reconstruction and posted it some time ago:
http://atarn.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t ... ght=v%F6rs
And that's me just above Mr. Novotny, trying Sanyi Paku's small magyar construction...

Szabi

[Adam Karpowicz]

Sandor,

I am trying to digest what you say about the siyah plates and that the plates went down level with the horn. Bone is a stiff material not easily flexed. Then the side siyah plates were not likely to conform to any roundness of the belly at the knee. Then, if they indeed were reaching to the horn, there had to be some rounding of the sharp points of the bone plates at the bellly side. Otherwise the belly side of the knee would have two sharp side corners - essentially the knee would be sharply squared at the belly. I can not imagine a bowyer making bows like that with no attempt to round the belly. On the other hand, if the wood of siyahs extended below the plates, the sharp plate corners (with the thinning of the bottom edge) make more sense. What do you think?

At this point, I tend to believe the diagonal ends in the plates have no significance and the actual transition between the limbs and ears was a few centimeters (?) below the plates. Possibly the final curvature there resembled the existing curved plates.

Now, the other issue is how far the horn extended into the siyahs. With the more gentle curvature of the knee, it could have been quite a distance up the knee. It is then possible the knee had some flex, probably (partially?) reduced by the presence of the curved bone plates, if present.

For a sharp belly corner in the knee one would have to deliberately add an additional chunk of wood there (as in Khotan bow as I recall), or the belly slat for the core would have to be made thick. This is not likely to be the case, since it is hard to bend a thick slat into a sharp corner. I understand one can laminate a pre-formed siyah onto the back side of the limb, but I do not recall such construction (other than in the modern replicas - the "seated" ear as you say). ???

Adam

[paku]

Adam
This is exactly what I think. It is weird but the bone plates should cover the wood core of the limbs to reinforce the joint and they were completely straight. This explains why the cross section of the knee should be a rectangle. This is really not to explain by our standards, probably they did not care too much about efficiency (lowering weight), they just wanted a strong safe bow.

?On the other hand, if the wood of siyahs extended below the plates, the sharp plate corners (with the thinning of the bottom edge) make more sense?
Sorry but I have not understood the meaning of this sentence.

The curved bone plates were from the Avars (which interestingly preceded the Magyar?s) In this case there is no doubt that the transition was curved. They are also thinner at the base to accommodate the curvature. In contrast the width of the Magyar plates usually increases toward the base which is more in harmony with the angled transition at the knee.
I think the horn did not extended into the siyahs (I do my bows in the same way) and knee on Hungarian bows was completely rigid. On Turkish bows the horn do not extends into the tip and the transition between kasan and tip is rigid.
It looks like the on Turkish bows the siyahs was reversed compared to the Hungarian bows. Roughly the long ear (tip) of the Hungarian bow was inserted into the limb (got to be kasan) and the small piece which was used to glue the ear to the limbs became the tip. Additionally the transition between the sal and kasan became somewhat flexible, which phenomenon does not exist in Hungarian bows. It is possible that on Hungarian bows the ears (siyahs) were simply cut, this is why they needed the extra reinforcement by the bone plates beside that they were probably only seated. As far as I remember it was mentioned on ATARN that V splice did not existed that time.
Sorry for the long and probably confusing post.
S?ndor

[Dusan]

Thank you Paku and Szaby. Its good knows who is who , and who make bows.

[Dusan]

I replace Georgia bows to Russian collection.

[Adam Karpowicz]

Sandor

I think I was not too clear. The bottom line: you assume the knee joint required the reinforcment with the bone plates. I do not believe this is true - the sinew wraps are quite sufficient for that. Then, for me, the bottom ends of the plates did not have to touch the horns and their shape there is irrelevant.

Adam

[paku]

Adam
It is clear now. We have different opinion, but it is right so. More experiments are needed.
I hope will you join us on the Hungarian bow project to clarify this subject. .
S?ndor

[jkekoni]

Paku, you have intresting theory.

I think cutting such a piece of wood is well feasible, if you have bandsaw. If you do not, It is possible, but would require a lot of more work like other methods, such as lamination from many small pieces, naturally curved wood.

I was thinking of a different, but related theory, and it is that the curve is made from multiple pieces of wood and the bone reinforces that joint. I do not belive that either...