Scythian Bows Article

Adam Karpowicz · Post by **Adam Karpowicz** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:11 am

Jack, I think we are confusing two things in the discussion. One is whether the ibex has significance for Egyptians. Two is whether the bow in question (posted by JJ - are there any other?) proves the vertical side slats of horn were used in the Egyptian bows.

I can not comment on the first, since this is far beyond my "expertise" and I'd rather leave the question for the academics. I am sure there is plenty of literature on these subjects.

As to the second - I understand how you feel, but honestly I do not see this to be obvious at all. Firstly, the groove is empty and we can only speculate what was there before. Given the fondness of the Egyptians to use flat slats in other bows, I would not be surprised to see something like that in the bow as well, maybe even in combination with wood. These bows were rather thin, and when the belly horn slat (now lost, but had to be present as in other bows) is subtracted from the total, the core is prob no more than 1cm thick if that (back to belly).

Now, even assuming they used the vert. slat in the bows, the shape of the finished bow is a gentle curve. The curve is so common for horns used in bowyery everywhere that I just can not see the ibex there. Of course it could be, but maybe not. Now we need to get someone to do the analysis for us and I would reserve the judgement as to the species until the presence of ibex is proven. I recall an antelope was mentioned as a source of horns in McLeod. I see a lot of unanswered questions here and a fruitful field to research.

Note I am absolutely not questioning what you say. I do not share your enthusiasm (yet! 8^)), that is all.

You also mention a connection between the Egyptian and earlier bows and the Scythian. I see it too, but not necessarily in conjuntion with the vertical slats.

Adam

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:28 am

Adam,
I take your points as valid.

Rereading McLeod, it is clear that bow 29, which is the one that I remembered as having alternating vertical strips of horn and wood is more problematic than I thought. There is room for argument about what the vertical laminations were.

Another point you made was about the work involved. Using handsaws and tying the horn to a post in lieu of a clamp suggest to me that whatever method used to extract strips of horn was going to be laborious. I suppose the absence of TV and the internet made it more tolerable.

Regarding bows that had two horn strips, one above (thinner) and one below the wooden core, makes me wonder if the bowyer was trying to duplicate a solid horn core with less weight.

I do not suggest the side strips were other than wood. In the bows with absent cores, it is possible that a three layer core had its two horn components hydrolysed or eaten by insects and the wooden part simply fell out for lack of support.

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:26 am

I wanted to demonstrate that what we are seeing as horn in Egyptian bows is Ibex. I copy the reply from the author; Hi Jack,

This comes from my book Aegeans in the Theban Tombs. I am copying below links to the chapters related to this, which also includes the bibliography, as well as the plates.

In Chapters 1-2, see particularly pp. 12-25, but for full understanding of the complexity of understanding the scenes of bowyers workshops one should read all of chapter 2.

Chapters 1-2 click--> http://files.me.com/wachsmann/zt0lz7

Chapter 5--> http://files.me.com/wachsmann/z6ldli

Plates--> http://files.me.com/wachsmann/deed6i

You can just cut and paste the links to ATARN.

Hope this helps.

Shelley

Adam Karpowicz · Post by **Adam Karpowicz** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:56 pm

The link with the plates does not work.

This is very interesting and it may be the horns were indeed ibex, although the evidence is circumstantial (as she writes in the book). Anyway, I would look into a couple of details:

One, the two types of horn: more curved and less curved, presumably coming from young and old animals. Perhaps the horn are actually taken from different animals?

Two, why the horns were painted white (if painted)? The horns in the bows are black. It maybe it is of no importance, since the colours were mindlesly copied from a "pattern book" or an earlier painting, but maybe not.

Again, I do not think it matters whether Egyptians used ibex or not.

Adam

Kviljo · Post by **Kviljo** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:01 pm

Are the horn core laminates in the Scythian so thick that they can only be obtained from the sides of the ibex horns?

Edit: the Plates-link does not work here either. All I get is a "File does not exist".

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:49 am

Adam; The link to the plates does work. There are 70 illustrations so let it have a minute or two.

Though Nubian Ibex horns are light colored on the animal (look to your illustration of the Siberian variety) Nubian is black inside. If a modern Mongolian bow can be used as an example, the Siberian version has a light yellow-grey color inside. Each of the many species of Ibex has different horns. The immature and the females have a different shape to mature males.

Ageans were bringing Agrimi Ibex from Crete.

Shelly is a man and I think he visited a weak and aged McLeod in the UK last year.

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:36 pm

Will investigate the illustrations download for you all. Might happen next week.

Kviljo · Post by **Kviljo** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:31 pm

You are both making some good points here, but isn't the unbraced shape of the egyptian bow more of a bi-effect of the braced profile? The main symbol of the egyptian bow seems to be that of the triangle, or pyramid.

Now that does not prohibit any symbolic attachment to the ibex, however.

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:34 am

I will just delete this message which has a pro Apple tinge.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:52 am

Jack,
I think it is the last one causing problems.
https://files.me.com/wachsmann/deed6
It says file not available. The other two work and have done so for a while. You might notice that it changes to a https: address when you paste it. I will try again another way and see what happens.

This is the message:
This file is no longer available.
The file you are looking for is no longer being shared at this address. The link has either expired or the owner of the account has decided to stop sharing the file.
If you still need to access this file, please contact the owner of this MobileMe account.

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:58 pm

Ok guys; the original link is now changed, is up and working. Let me know.

Kviljo · Post by **Kviljo** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:34 pm

It's working now.

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:31 am

Working. Thanks Jack. Beatiful pics -all article !

muzzler · Post by **muzzler** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:58 pm

I've red article. But I don't understand about inside horn core.
1) Grip has not inside horn core?
2) Section A&B has one piece of inside horn core?

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:05 am

Muzzler; Which article are you referring to, Scythian or Egyptian?