Interesting Asiatic Bows in Russian Collections

This is where we discuss the bows, arrows, quivers and other hardware used in Asian archery.
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Dusan
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Post by Dusan » Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:07 am

In 2004 was found in Tchurantchin Ulus Sacha republic -Yakutia (Kiordugen/ interesting old warrior tomb. On grave was big bone armour from 105 bone plates (45 x 155 cm) mostli from moose bones vith visible arrow penetration (!) and bow bone plates. Most interesting is that datation is very old -2500 bc. !


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Nomber 4 is bone plate.:


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from side


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8-9 bone bow plates

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stone arrowheads was found too

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details of armour plated


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Visible arrow penetration / in some was evan stone arrowheads pieces/


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Same tipe of armour was nown evan from 19 century !


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somthin similar have Skitas

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in evolution we can see same armour in Mongol army


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Last edited by Dusan on Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dusan
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Post by Dusan » Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:05 pm

Bone bow plates from Osinski tomb in Saiano Altay -old turkic

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Ukraina 12 c.


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Old Hun 200bc-100c. Umbriunsk - Tuva (asimetrik bow vithaut handle bone plates)


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old turcic bone plates


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Sacka-Ukraina Got or old Russ wood arrowhead 11-12 c.


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Kuiukkala tomb


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metal arrowheads /Kuiukkala/


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Bows somwhere in Kaukaz museum(Tchechnya -Dagestan ?)

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Stephen Selby
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Post by Stephen Selby » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:55 am

What is the description of this image, please?

http://img.janforman.com/Koryakarmorhjru.jpg
Dusan
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Post by Dusan » Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:31 am

Its end of 19 c. pic from two Koriak (Yakut tribe )wariors vith bows .Same bows use all north tribes from Mongol steps , to Finland ,Sveden Lapons. Russians archeologists have evolution teoria how this bows vith vertical string nock changed to frontal string nock. Vith chang on siah part and efectivity too
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Kviljo
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Post by Kviljo » Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:15 pm

The bow to the left looks like an all wood laminate. - with conifer compression wood on the belly, and usually birch on the back. The other might also be an all wood laminate, or perhaps it is a horn bow?

Almost like the three in my avatar 8)
Dusan
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Post by Dusan » Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:56 pm

Yes , mostly its a same bows like Lapons in your country-cose this is same tribes like in Kamtchatka, but some of tham has hornbows too.
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Zoran Pavlovic
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Post by Zoran Pavlovic » Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:25 am

Du?an and other friends sorry for interruption,
On Koriak bows, look this picture of bone plates found in the remains of ancient Serbian capital Ras.
Looks like Serbs before XII century used bows with ''horizontal'' nocks (maybe these ones which shot a group of Friedrich Barbarosa's crusaders during their passing by across Serbia) . Also, if early byzantine documents say that Slavs used wooden bows it doesn't mean self bows since they are recorded as good and infalliable archers.
Also, i always admired to Kviljo's replicas, it gave me some proves and ideas about my research.
Best regards,
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Dusan
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Post by Dusan » Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:40 am

Ouch ! That very interestin ! I to this time dont know about any artifacts like yours out of north area .
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Kviljo
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Post by Kviljo » Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:08 pm

Those nocks definitely have the same configuration as some two-wood bows. I haven't seen any other evidence for bone/antler plates on two-woods before.

The grip plate is a bit worrying though, as I have a hard time seeing how a bone plate could be attached to a two-wood bow. All the medieval two-woods does not have a pronounced grip, just a gentle narrowing of the limbs at the middle. The later 1900-cent. Siberian bows do have a thickened grip, but such a grip plate would still be difficult to fit to such a bow.

Keep on searching though, there ought to be some more evidence for these bows if they really were used. The belly wood, as it is compression wood, is better preserved than regular wood. Finding those would be proper evidence. The majority of the Norwegian two-woods have been found in citys, where lots of wood artefacts have been preserved. A similar site in your area would probably be a good place to look.
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Zoran Pavlovic
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Post by Zoran Pavlovic » Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:30 pm

Kviljo,
You are in doubt with the right.
The remains of bone plates indicate horn bows and not laminated two wood bows.Fragment of ear bone plate with a horizontal notch is 11.5 cm long and 1.5 cm wide.Fragment of grip bone stiffener has a length of 7 cm and 2.5 cm width (holes are quite problematic), indicating at least 14-15cm long handle.Replica should prove more angled ears than usual.
All this fully agrees with the dimensions of painted Serbian bows from the 14th century which are, no doubt, horn bows. In regards to the dimensions of the bone plates, I think it's impossible to do a two wood bow of short dimensions (do mean for war bows with great poundage).
During the excavation they were found in a layer that belongs to the beginning of the thirteenth century so they confirm the use of horn bows in medieval Serbia, even in the twelfth century, and bearing in mind the surroundings such as the Byzantine Empire and specially Hungary with whom Serbia(Ra?ka) was ally during the twelfth century it is
not difficult to see where influences came from.
*I just wanted to say that i came to know about this type of notches after i saw Ivar's ''two wood'' bows replicas and it gave me the proof about possibility of reconstruction since i was in doubt for so long time if these plates were bow stiffeners.
Best regards,
Last edited by Zoran Pavlovic on Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jack farrell
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Post by jack farrell » Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:00 pm

Zoran; When grip plates were exposed as in the decorated type you show, at least the ends were rough to accept sinew and glue lashings and often one edge as well. This piece could be part of a horse bit harness piece as others of this type have been suspected to be.

About the end notched piece, maybe more is known. Did two wood bows have such ends? horn bows?
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Zoran Pavlovic
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Post by Zoran Pavlovic » Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:10 pm

jack farrell wrote:Zoran; When grip plates were exposed as in the decorated type you show, at least the ends were rough to accept sinew and glue lashings and often one edge as well. This piece could be part of a horse bit harness piece as others of this type have been suspected to be.
Jack,
I just mentioned ''holes in the bone stiffener as quite problematic'', so your note can be usefull.
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Dusan
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Post by Dusan » Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:00 pm

Jack, many bone plates from this tipe of bows was found from rusian archeologs. Hornbows and two wood bos .Long period in history was this "vertical" string nock popular disain in Siberia /mongol area.
Dusan
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Post by Dusan » Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:02 pm

This is very simple evolution bow string nock table from Russian literature.
7-9 c. vertical bow plates was found mostly and from 9-12c horizontal bow bone plates.

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here is visible Tchukcha tribe wood/sinew /skin bow vith 3 bone plates (kuriosity is that handle bone was from mamont )

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clearly visible horn(!) plates in another Iukhagir tribe sinew /wood bow

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detail


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Giliak tribe- interesting bow-somthing like example future composites endid in Turks bows

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Feno-Ugrian bow from 1617 -Museum Riga


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same

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Sang Peterburg museum artilery and etnography-Yakut armory- very similar that 2500bc...

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Dusan
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Post by Dusan » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:27 pm

Interesting article i found in Bulgar information sait "Bulgar Ile " from Stepan Krivo?eev , About new Russian archeologist famous work.! Because its long text i use Google translator / i think its still better than mi Anglish :oops: /

Absolutli not known big battle between Batu chan mongols and Zolotorevsk town !


Penza region found the place a grand battle of the XIII century, which historical records are silent. Archaeologists claim that in its scope, it does not yield the biggest battles of the Middle Ages

In modern Penza region is the area called Zolotarevskii settlement. Back in the 60's of last century, researchers have found traces of a fortress here, which was destroyed by Mongols. But the true scale of the drama, played out on thethe banks of of the river near Surat in 1237 ,opened to historians until now.

In the Middle Ages military force was the main reason politicians, but because the border skirmishes and large-scale battles are not uncommon. But the material evidence of those years came to us not so much. Therefore, each new discovery is of great interest to scientists. Well, if it is possible to detect traces of previously unknown large-scale battles, this is already a sensation.

Restore the details of one of the biggest battles of the XIII century intends Doctor of History, Head of the Department of Ancient History, Medieval Archaeology and the Penza State Pedagogical University, Professor Gennady Belorybkin. Along with him correspondents Itogi Zolotarevskii visited the mound.

To us in the university began to receive people who are told that on the former site of the fortress are constantly digging some people. We went here and were shocked by what he saw: almost the entire territory of the settlement and the surrounding neighborhoods were torn up by the wells. Clearly the handiwork of "black diggers".

They took only the most valuable items - made of gold and silver, and all that they did not need - arrowheads, remains of a harness, armor - they were piled near the stumps. When we walked through those stumps, we found the whole mountain without vending "black archeology" items. And when calculated how much we do, "hemp" iron lumped, it turned out - a few thousand items. And the wreckage was scattered over an area of about 7.6 hectares.


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This summer, during the excavation revealed that among the finds is dominated by details of the weapons: arrowheads, remains of saber weapons, ornaments and fragments of the warriors of a harness. And besides, it was found just a huge number of human skeletons. Were found with the bones sticking out of their arrowheads, chopped skull, and the fortress wall, even unearthed the remains of a warrior, a contraction in the hand mace. All this pointed to the fact that Zolotarevskii settlement is precisely the place of battle, rather than burial. Prior researchers have discovered a huge field of battle, in which only some arrowheads have been found more than a thousand! "To you has been more understandable scale battles - said Gennady Belorybkin - is such an example.
This area is in the beginning of the XIII century, was part of the Volga-Kama Bulgaria. So, across the Volga Bulgaria typed, perhaps hundreds of tips found in many years of archaeological research. And here in one place to more than a thousand! On a battlefield, and we found a huge number of fragments of swords - the main weapon of the time. This amount of detail saber weapons even in the whole of ancient Russia, probably does not reach. "
Having collected all the findings, Gennady Belorybkin went with them to Moscow and St. Petersburg to Russia's leading historians and experts on ancient weapons. Everyone who saw what he brought back, nearly fell off their chairs in amazement and could not believe my eyes.
Meanwhile, scientists were to attempt to more accurately determine when it is unknown what happened slaughter. "At the beginning of XIII century, there are two major historical battles - said Professor Belorybkin. - First - a battle in 1223 on the river Kalka when Subedey Jebe and led the Mongol army defeated the Russian. Some historical records say that after this slaughter Mongols relaxed their troops were ambushed by the Volga Bulgars, and were defeated. Many historians believe that it happened in Zolotarivka.

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Second-known major battle occurred in 1237 when the defeated Batu first Volga Bulgaria, and then moved to Russia and attacked Ryazan grabbed her and then walked across the north-eastern Russia. But before we go to Russia, Mongol Khan stood the whole autumn between Ryazan and the Volga. "
That's where the fun begins. According to the historian in the ancient chronicles have written a very important reference to the fact that Batu Khan and his army stood for a few months on the river or near the city Nuzle Onuza. Not far away is the historic monument, the so-called Neklyudovskoe fort on the river Uze. Uza and Onuza transcription are very close and we can assume that in this place, and stood with his army of Batu Khan. Incidentally, when archaeologists unearthed Neklyudovskoe mound, they found many things indicating a stay of the Mongols.
It is not excluded that, being in the area, Khan attempted to seize and destroy all the nearby settlements and fortresses. For example, a Persian scholar of encyclopedic Rashidaddin there is mention of the fact that Batu Khan was just at this time engaged in war with the tribes and Burtases moksha. It was during this period, lived here and Moksha, and Burtases, and Bulgars. Therefore, as suggested by Professor Belorybkin, seems the most plausible version of that battle took place in 1237.

One from Zolotarivka warriors vith arrowpoint still in head...


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When scientists began to understand who fought on the battlefield, it became clear that here was not simply a battle between the Mongols and Burtases here, without exaggeration, was a battle of nations. By the Mongols took part in it mainly Turkic tribes, and by the defenders - the Bulgars, Burtases Mordvins, Russian, kypchaki and, quite unexpectedly, Askiz, who lived at that time in the Altai, that is nearly 3000 kilometers. They formed the backbone of the military unit that protected the fort. Askiz can be compared with the Vikings. But if the Vikings have acted in the Dnipro basin and in the northern lands, the Askiz - in the Volga-Urals region.

According to Gennady Belorybkin, this battle was not accidental: "At first we thought that the Mongols were on the road, got in their way fort, they took and smashed all. However, this hardly seemed so. The fact that a settlement was held Zolotarevskii a major trade route from the capital of Volga Bulgaria in the capital of Kievan Rus. Refreshment obscured ferry across the River Suru, around it was simply impossible. You could say it was a key outpost. Therefore, in any event, he had only to take by storm. "
Apparently aware of the impending danger, the defenders of the settlement were actively preparing for battle. They pre-dug around the walls in a staggered manner so-called wolf pits and promptly inserted there "garlic" (metal spikes). Horses, getting into such wells, received serious injuries. Cavalry to get directly to the castle was virtually impossible. These holes were intended also to the attackers could not roll down the walls of the settlement the collision technique and catapults. "Incidentally, these well preserved centuries later.
To the complete destruction

Tousands found material is in boxes in Penza pedagogic university :

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According to Gennady Belorybkina, the course of events was so. Likely Batu attacked the fortress of the night. Surrounded the fort from all sides, the Mongols invited the defenders to surrender and open the gate. However, was rejected. Then Batu attacked fort. Mongolians often used in an attack tactic, called a "round dance". The cavalry surrounded the fortress and began to bombard the defenders of the bows. As a rule, medieval battle - this collision of short-term. Armour soldiers weighed about 50 kilograms, and for a long fight in them was simply physically impossible. Mongols because of their numerical superiority could ever replace the tired soldiers.

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Plano Carpini, a Franciscan monk, was sent in 1246 by Pope Innocent IV to mongolotataram, describes the tactics of siege fortifications of the Mongols: "If you meet such a fortress, they surround her, nay, sometimes they are so shield her that no one can enter or exit , while they are very brave fight guns and arrows, and even for one day or at night can not stop the battle, so that the funds to strengthen not have leisure; themselves Tatars rest, as they share the army and replaced by one another in battle, so that they are not very tired. And if they can not master the strengthening in this way, throw it wildfire, not only do they usually take the fat people who get killed, and poured it into the melted form at home, and wherever the fire reaches the this fat, it burns unquenchable ... " Apparently, it was so and Zolotarevskii fort.

Batlle place :

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Supposed to defend the fortress for a long time. Digging a trench, the scientists ran into a barn, scored grain. Oats alone was found 20 bags. But the forces in this battle was too unequal. On the side of the defenders of the settlement were fighting about a thousand men, he resisted for about five thousand soldiers of Batu Khan.

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"Most likely slaughter lasted about two days and were killed on the battlefield, the bulk of the defenders - said Professor Belorybkin. - In the end, with Baty Chinese catapults still break through the wall of the fortress and entered the fort. He ordered his soldiers to kill everyone survivors and loot and burn down the fort. Apparently, women and children were herded into a barn, shut up and burned. In one of the stores of grain, we found a mountain of human remains. " Such "action" Mongolians are generally arranged only if the population to resist. Cities, who surrendered without a fight, especially the Mongols were not touched. From this we can conclude that the residents Zolotarevskii settlement offered stubborn resistance, and therefore were completely destroyed. Large quantities of arms and bodies were left lying retracted on the battlefield. This can only be explained by the fact that the surrounding area were also devastated by the Mongol army, and there was no one to bury the dead defenders.

many gold things was found

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Studies Zolotarevskii slaughter must be continued, since this historic event still carries a lot of mysteries. And, perhaps chief among them - who directs the actions of the defenders? And why no record of not bringing this to our knowledge of this great battle?

Interesting Tiger bronze belt buckle. This tiger simbol can own in belt only Dzingischan descendent.(say russian historician)

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more Mongols arrowheads

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