I do not see two bows in the case?
Dusan:
Re the Obra warrior 500 b.c.e. The two siyahs on the left seem to belong to the curved Scythan bow (and quite large). There must be horn reinforcments hiding inside the tips. The piece on the left seems to have a V-splice at the end? The other bone sections on the right belong to a straight-ended, non-contact bow.
Are all parts really from the same grave? That would be interesting.
Adam
Interesting Asiatic Bows in Russian Collections
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Adam Karpowicz
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Dusan
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Yes these things was from same grave. Russians archeologists dont call this old culturs "Skitas" or "Sakas" but give him territorial names- where the culture graves was found. There was bigger article -how changed siahs his curvature . If you interesting i can found him.-
Dusan
- Posts: 990
- Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:29 pm
- Location: Slovakia
Well , Adam i must corect information. I found article and there is clear , that diferent parts of bows was not from same grave ! Here is all article :
Bow and arrow, the middle of the II millennium
Bow and arrow for the peoples of Siberia: Introduction
The gradual disappearance of the bony plates
"notes another from the Hun period of decline in the number of bone lining boldly traced to the West Siberian materials. Starting from VII-VIII cc., according to AA Gavrilova, the most widely used bows with only two median strip. They existed before the IX-X cc. Lateral same end-plates were used in Western Siberia to the first centuries of the second millennium. The latest findings come from their burial Sedov Zaimka the Novosibirsk Ob XI-XIII centuries. and settlements Preobrazhenka-4 XIV-XV centuries (see fig.. 3 2, 3). By this time the types of bows 4.1 gradually disappear, replaced by patterns appear Mongolian type (with median vesloobraznymi overlays), along with distributed and large arrowheads, original forms
Tselnoderevyannaya designs were, apparently, the leading form of archery in Western Siberia during the Middle Ages. This, most likely due to the imbalance observed between the total number of burials with arrowheads, quivers in their tracks and the remnants of a bow, fixed in the form of linings
Fig. 3. Reinforcing details of bows.
1 - mortise wooden end (Vengerovo-VII); 2, 3 - end plates; 4,5 - front lining.
Existence tselnoderevyannaya bow
Tselnoderevyannaya bows without bony plates (perhaps due to the increasing sharpness of climate change in 14. or in connection with the withering away of tehonologicheski unnecessary forms) is in Western Siberia, the leading form of the middle of the II millennium before the time of the ethnographic present. Hantnyysky epic told tselnoderevyannaya description of such a complex bow.
"Cream-left bow is made of wood Kremleva. It is made of one entire half upland pine. Birch bow is made of birch wood. It is made of one entire half Doubravna pine. Bow, equipped with birch bark, is made (by) bark, stripped to the oak. Five of entire groves of birches were quite spent (on it). Glue the bow is glued (sob.: done) (with fish glue), glue was consume (in this case) from five sturgeon. Five boilers fish glue as a whole (it) has gone ... "
This description is identical to the ones that were made by ethnographers at the end of the past - the beginning of this century. According to the latest kibit bow is made of two planks: the bottom - of tonkostvolnoy pine or spruce, the top - from birch. Particular attention was paid to the choice of pine: Use only tree that grew in the woods or the slope of the gully, facing south. Choosing a tree, constantly facing the sun. The wood (krenevaya or Kremleva) was largely impregnated with resin and have high strength. The ends of the bow were made of cherry. Details are carefully customized to each other. At a special Gibalov Kremleva of calcined and promazyvali pitch up until it did not acquire the desired shape. Then the bow finally mounted and glued. Sometimes, thickening in the middle of the bottom side made of bird-cherry dice. After assembling the bow paste with birch bark. To this end, selected only thin layers of inner bark, which boil and fastened in the wet. The length of the bowstring, which Vili of nettle or hemp tow, was at 25-30 cm shorter than the bow. Sometimes it is prepared from tendons. Bowstring polished, extending through the holes in the tree, and made at the ends of ears. Finished bowstring sometimes glued over with birch bark. "
"These bows consisted of two wooden (from different species) to be thoroughly treated and-fitting plates. Maximum of width in the shoulders as high as 4 cm length kibiti ranged from 120-145 cm in the upper die section is a strongly flattened segment, the lower - slightly more convex shape. Among themselves they fastened flat sides so that the bow arm in the plan represented the ellipse. In the central part of the bow flat-out in longitudinal section, but expanded in the cross, recalling from the back of an elongated figure eight. In some cases, the central part of the reinforcement was fixed wooden extension (overlay). The ends of bows were cut from separate pieces of wood and inserted into the spine between the upper and lower components. Apparently, they were mounted at an angle to kibiti. But not quite satisfactory safety and deformation in the ground does not reliably address this question. For the same reason, difficult to talk about the form of cutout stringer. Tree for kibiti adjusted so that its growth rings meet the rounded external profile vystrugivaemoy bars. After the final assembly of finished bow paste with long strips of bark. Butt seam fell on the side facing the bowstring .
Feature one of the bows found in the burial Abramov-10 - metal bracket, anisette covering the upper part of the handle. One of its ends goes in the direction (perpendicular to the longitudinal axis) and then curled up. Obviously, hook served as a guide for the boom.
Luke described construction is well known from the ethnographic material. According to YB Simchenko they relate to the type of West Siberian taiga bands, which differed from each other (with the ends inserted into the slot on both sides of (Simchenko YB Culture deer hunters in North Asia. - M., 1976 .- S. 133.)) pasting curved ends between the bars kibiti.
See also the manufacturer of archery (1, 2).
In the late medieval burial Kyshtovka-2 (16-18 cc.), Despite a very respectable series of arrowheads, none of the 140 excavated mounds were found bony plates. Of great interest is finding (pogr. 1, Kurg. 134) tselnoderevyannaya bows, which, combined with similar materials and approximately synchronized repositories Abramov-10 (16-17 cent.) And Molchanov (16-17 cc.) On the Ob River (in the latter also found no bony plates) gives a visual representation of the construction of this kind.
"In this regard, revealing finding DG Savinov and VN Polosmak of Sargatskoe repository Vengerovo-7. It is well preserved only mortise end of a bow (Fig. 3. 1), but it was he who, showing a genetic link with the later and ethnographic samples can say with certainty when tselnoderevyannaya glued bows of West Siberian type long before the Turkic, Mongolian and the more time and the coexistence of them with models of "Hun-type during the most recent spread to North Asian expanse.
Range
At the moment, the approximate range of the medieval Siberian bow calculated theoretically.
"What possessed the same parameters ancient bows and how far to shoot the medieval archers? Accurate data on this point we do not have. Oral tradition as a reliable information to us squealed. Inherent heroic epic exaggeration is not conducive to the establishment of objective truth. To solve the problem were examined Abramovsky bows: their parameters based on elasticity theory was an attempt to address in general terms the potential of their range. taken as a basis the most common and fundamentally solvable case of whole-wood construction. According to the calculated data, depending on the initial values bowshot fluctuated within 140-230 m. In practice the data obtained are approximate, estimate. Actual results could fluctuate on either side, but probably not much. " Other data: "As pointed out by AF Medvedev, European and Oriental archers shooting distance, beyond which direct hit is impossible, - 300 cubits, ie, 154-156 m. APOkladnikov, citing facts about range of a North American bows, pointed out that they inflicted serious wounds when fired at a distance of 80-100 meters in closed forest area actually possible range of direct shots should fluctuate within this range, however, it could be lower.
This, however, does not mean that the taiga residents did not seek to increase the power of the bow. According to folklore materials is known about the mighty bows, pull unable and several others. Praise the heroes who can defeat the enemy an arrow through the trees, broken stone, demolished a pillar, and the wind raised by the bowstring, to sweep away a whole bunch of rich debris mound. On the power of the bows can be judged by ethnographic information about the lethal force of arms. According to the L. Schrenk, gilyaki to bear festival "at close range one arrow on the spot razili bear. " Not inferior to them and the West-Siberian archers, who are "still UBO tricks and children of their studies and to adjust to mladye claws fired from a bow ... And this is the trickiest in his handiwork known, Thou everyone in his mladosti studied bow himself out of wood and arrows himself to do and naikrepchayshih Zverev: bear, moose, deer kill "
Methods of firing
On the basis of fragmentary data folklor AI Soloviev identified two ways of archery.
First:
arms held in front of him, stretched the bowstring to his breast;
Two:
bow raised high, and stretched the bowstring to his ear.
"Only the latter method, obviously, it was possible to pull an arrow on the entire length of the shaft and three-quarter chetyrehchetvertnogo tip. In the tradition of these methods are contrasted: The first shot Nenets, the second - the Khanty, but obviously, they differ by the nature of sight, depending on the distance.
Peoples of Siberia has been known several methods of targeting, for example, Ob-Ugric peoples practiced aiming at the target through tail and tip of the optical axis defined by two points. This method is very true, gives good results, and he preferred. However, from a military point of view, the best is the one for which guidance is produced when the arm is stretched to 2 / 3 of its length. Followed by a tension to the extreme and rapid descent. This greatly saves time, allows you to deceive the enemy, less tired eyes. In addition, it allows you to successfully shoot "with the leash at a moving target. In this case, the ancient archers have achieved good results. According to the testimony of Mr. Novitsky Ostyaks "all birds, not just floating on the water, but flying through the air, in the flying arrows improves,".
Shooting in the woods close range on the fast disappearing in the bush production required high skill, clarity and coherence, precision and endurance, ie, qualities that are equally necessary hunter and warrior. Obviously, as a result of training was achieved and the high rate of fire. Quite remarkable in this sense is the message R. Maak, who was a witness, as some Tungus took two arrows with blunt tips, one of them let up, and while she was flying, grabbed the other and knocked her falling. "Of the 10 shots he actually hit the target from 7 to 8 times. Of course, for such a successful firing is necessary to consider the power of your bow, the distance to the target, limiting flight-shot, etc. In the battle proper analysis of this sum rapidly changing factors have become even more important. Ancient archers knew the properties of their bows and their range, which varied in total weight, probably, not very wide limits. The proof of this is mentioned several times in a heroic epic of the measure "a distance flight of arrows." To it, however, in addition to the elastic kibiti affects a number of factors: the thickness of the stringer, the nature of tail reach, its deflection and vibration, as well as the form of tips. "
Bowstring
Khanty epic tells us about the stuff stringer:
"Kremleva bow made of wood ... Kremleva Tetivny bow equipped (sob.: done) on a string. For it was entirely spent five piles tyaparskoy nettle, stripped on the spot where he stood tyaparsky house. On another strand of golden silk five point piles were completely spent "(Patkanov S. Die Irtysch-Ostjaken und inre Volkspoesie .- Spb, 1900 .- T. 2 .- S. 83).
Apparently, a silk bow-string was designed for the professional military, but not for ordinary hunters.
Other researchers also say about hemp or sinew bowstring in Siberia: "The length of the bowstring, which Vili of nettle or hemp tow, was at 25-30 cm shorter than the bow. Sometimes it is prepared from tendons. bowstring polished, extending through the holes in the tree, and did at the ends of ears. Ready bowstring sometimes glued over bark (Dmitriev-Gy Gardeners. ... Look Vakh Ostyaks S. 7-8: Cited. SVDKN on. "
"The finished bow wore a removable string. In the Chukchi, Evenki, Yakut bowstring was made from rawhide straps, the Ainu - bast. Khanty have it twist the two strands of hemp or nettle tow, soaked, stretched by winding on wooden sticks, dried, re-soaked in hot glue, stretched and dried, then hang with birch bark. The peoples of the Amur were used for bowstrings purchase silk threads. There are several ways to mount the bowstring: the Ainu, Nanai, it tied through the holes on the ends of the shaft, in Mansi superimposed on the longitudinal or cross-cutting on flagstaff, Aleuts, Chukchi, Koryak hang a noose on the beveled ends of the shaft, the Nivkh, Chuvans, Yakut, Khanty, Nenets, Komi-Zyryans was attached to the spec. chashkoobraznoy form on a pole "(FE).
Bow and arrow, the middle of the II millennium
Bow and arrow for the peoples of Siberia: Introduction
The gradual disappearance of the bony plates
"notes another from the Hun period of decline in the number of bone lining boldly traced to the West Siberian materials. Starting from VII-VIII cc., according to AA Gavrilova, the most widely used bows with only two median strip. They existed before the IX-X cc. Lateral same end-plates were used in Western Siberia to the first centuries of the second millennium. The latest findings come from their burial Sedov Zaimka the Novosibirsk Ob XI-XIII centuries. and settlements Preobrazhenka-4 XIV-XV centuries (see fig.. 3 2, 3). By this time the types of bows 4.1 gradually disappear, replaced by patterns appear Mongolian type (with median vesloobraznymi overlays), along with distributed and large arrowheads, original forms
Tselnoderevyannaya designs were, apparently, the leading form of archery in Western Siberia during the Middle Ages. This, most likely due to the imbalance observed between the total number of burials with arrowheads, quivers in their tracks and the remnants of a bow, fixed in the form of linings
Fig. 3. Reinforcing details of bows.
1 - mortise wooden end (Vengerovo-VII); 2, 3 - end plates; 4,5 - front lining.
Existence tselnoderevyannaya bow
Tselnoderevyannaya bows without bony plates (perhaps due to the increasing sharpness of climate change in 14. or in connection with the withering away of tehonologicheski unnecessary forms) is in Western Siberia, the leading form of the middle of the II millennium before the time of the ethnographic present. Hantnyysky epic told tselnoderevyannaya description of such a complex bow.
"Cream-left bow is made of wood Kremleva. It is made of one entire half upland pine. Birch bow is made of birch wood. It is made of one entire half Doubravna pine. Bow, equipped with birch bark, is made (by) bark, stripped to the oak. Five of entire groves of birches were quite spent (on it). Glue the bow is glued (sob.: done) (with fish glue), glue was consume (in this case) from five sturgeon. Five boilers fish glue as a whole (it) has gone ... "
This description is identical to the ones that were made by ethnographers at the end of the past - the beginning of this century. According to the latest kibit bow is made of two planks: the bottom - of tonkostvolnoy pine or spruce, the top - from birch. Particular attention was paid to the choice of pine: Use only tree that grew in the woods or the slope of the gully, facing south. Choosing a tree, constantly facing the sun. The wood (krenevaya or Kremleva) was largely impregnated with resin and have high strength. The ends of the bow were made of cherry. Details are carefully customized to each other. At a special Gibalov Kremleva of calcined and promazyvali pitch up until it did not acquire the desired shape. Then the bow finally mounted and glued. Sometimes, thickening in the middle of the bottom side made of bird-cherry dice. After assembling the bow paste with birch bark. To this end, selected only thin layers of inner bark, which boil and fastened in the wet. The length of the bowstring, which Vili of nettle or hemp tow, was at 25-30 cm shorter than the bow. Sometimes it is prepared from tendons. Bowstring polished, extending through the holes in the tree, and made at the ends of ears. Finished bowstring sometimes glued over with birch bark. "
"These bows consisted of two wooden (from different species) to be thoroughly treated and-fitting plates. Maximum of width in the shoulders as high as 4 cm length kibiti ranged from 120-145 cm in the upper die section is a strongly flattened segment, the lower - slightly more convex shape. Among themselves they fastened flat sides so that the bow arm in the plan represented the ellipse. In the central part of the bow flat-out in longitudinal section, but expanded in the cross, recalling from the back of an elongated figure eight. In some cases, the central part of the reinforcement was fixed wooden extension (overlay). The ends of bows were cut from separate pieces of wood and inserted into the spine between the upper and lower components. Apparently, they were mounted at an angle to kibiti. But not quite satisfactory safety and deformation in the ground does not reliably address this question. For the same reason, difficult to talk about the form of cutout stringer. Tree for kibiti adjusted so that its growth rings meet the rounded external profile vystrugivaemoy bars. After the final assembly of finished bow paste with long strips of bark. Butt seam fell on the side facing the bowstring .
Feature one of the bows found in the burial Abramov-10 - metal bracket, anisette covering the upper part of the handle. One of its ends goes in the direction (perpendicular to the longitudinal axis) and then curled up. Obviously, hook served as a guide for the boom.
Luke described construction is well known from the ethnographic material. According to YB Simchenko they relate to the type of West Siberian taiga bands, which differed from each other (with the ends inserted into the slot on both sides of (Simchenko YB Culture deer hunters in North Asia. - M., 1976 .- S. 133.)) pasting curved ends between the bars kibiti.
See also the manufacturer of archery (1, 2).
In the late medieval burial Kyshtovka-2 (16-18 cc.), Despite a very respectable series of arrowheads, none of the 140 excavated mounds were found bony plates. Of great interest is finding (pogr. 1, Kurg. 134) tselnoderevyannaya bows, which, combined with similar materials and approximately synchronized repositories Abramov-10 (16-17 cent.) And Molchanov (16-17 cc.) On the Ob River (in the latter also found no bony plates) gives a visual representation of the construction of this kind.
"In this regard, revealing finding DG Savinov and VN Polosmak of Sargatskoe repository Vengerovo-7. It is well preserved only mortise end of a bow (Fig. 3. 1), but it was he who, showing a genetic link with the later and ethnographic samples can say with certainty when tselnoderevyannaya glued bows of West Siberian type long before the Turkic, Mongolian and the more time and the coexistence of them with models of "Hun-type during the most recent spread to North Asian expanse.
Range
At the moment, the approximate range of the medieval Siberian bow calculated theoretically.
"What possessed the same parameters ancient bows and how far to shoot the medieval archers? Accurate data on this point we do not have. Oral tradition as a reliable information to us squealed. Inherent heroic epic exaggeration is not conducive to the establishment of objective truth. To solve the problem were examined Abramovsky bows: their parameters based on elasticity theory was an attempt to address in general terms the potential of their range. taken as a basis the most common and fundamentally solvable case of whole-wood construction. According to the calculated data, depending on the initial values bowshot fluctuated within 140-230 m. In practice the data obtained are approximate, estimate. Actual results could fluctuate on either side, but probably not much. " Other data: "As pointed out by AF Medvedev, European and Oriental archers shooting distance, beyond which direct hit is impossible, - 300 cubits, ie, 154-156 m. APOkladnikov, citing facts about range of a North American bows, pointed out that they inflicted serious wounds when fired at a distance of 80-100 meters in closed forest area actually possible range of direct shots should fluctuate within this range, however, it could be lower.
This, however, does not mean that the taiga residents did not seek to increase the power of the bow. According to folklore materials is known about the mighty bows, pull unable and several others. Praise the heroes who can defeat the enemy an arrow through the trees, broken stone, demolished a pillar, and the wind raised by the bowstring, to sweep away a whole bunch of rich debris mound. On the power of the bows can be judged by ethnographic information about the lethal force of arms. According to the L. Schrenk, gilyaki to bear festival "at close range one arrow on the spot razili bear. " Not inferior to them and the West-Siberian archers, who are "still UBO tricks and children of their studies and to adjust to mladye claws fired from a bow ... And this is the trickiest in his handiwork known, Thou everyone in his mladosti studied bow himself out of wood and arrows himself to do and naikrepchayshih Zverev: bear, moose, deer kill "
Methods of firing
On the basis of fragmentary data folklor AI Soloviev identified two ways of archery.
First:
arms held in front of him, stretched the bowstring to his breast;
Two:
bow raised high, and stretched the bowstring to his ear.
"Only the latter method, obviously, it was possible to pull an arrow on the entire length of the shaft and three-quarter chetyrehchetvertnogo tip. In the tradition of these methods are contrasted: The first shot Nenets, the second - the Khanty, but obviously, they differ by the nature of sight, depending on the distance.
Peoples of Siberia has been known several methods of targeting, for example, Ob-Ugric peoples practiced aiming at the target through tail and tip of the optical axis defined by two points. This method is very true, gives good results, and he preferred. However, from a military point of view, the best is the one for which guidance is produced when the arm is stretched to 2 / 3 of its length. Followed by a tension to the extreme and rapid descent. This greatly saves time, allows you to deceive the enemy, less tired eyes. In addition, it allows you to successfully shoot "with the leash at a moving target. In this case, the ancient archers have achieved good results. According to the testimony of Mr. Novitsky Ostyaks "all birds, not just floating on the water, but flying through the air, in the flying arrows improves,".
Shooting in the woods close range on the fast disappearing in the bush production required high skill, clarity and coherence, precision and endurance, ie, qualities that are equally necessary hunter and warrior. Obviously, as a result of training was achieved and the high rate of fire. Quite remarkable in this sense is the message R. Maak, who was a witness, as some Tungus took two arrows with blunt tips, one of them let up, and while she was flying, grabbed the other and knocked her falling. "Of the 10 shots he actually hit the target from 7 to 8 times. Of course, for such a successful firing is necessary to consider the power of your bow, the distance to the target, limiting flight-shot, etc. In the battle proper analysis of this sum rapidly changing factors have become even more important. Ancient archers knew the properties of their bows and their range, which varied in total weight, probably, not very wide limits. The proof of this is mentioned several times in a heroic epic of the measure "a distance flight of arrows." To it, however, in addition to the elastic kibiti affects a number of factors: the thickness of the stringer, the nature of tail reach, its deflection and vibration, as well as the form of tips. "
Bowstring
Khanty epic tells us about the stuff stringer:
"Kremleva bow made of wood ... Kremleva Tetivny bow equipped (sob.: done) on a string. For it was entirely spent five piles tyaparskoy nettle, stripped on the spot where he stood tyaparsky house. On another strand of golden silk five point piles were completely spent "(Patkanov S. Die Irtysch-Ostjaken und inre Volkspoesie .- Spb, 1900 .- T. 2 .- S. 83).
Apparently, a silk bow-string was designed for the professional military, but not for ordinary hunters.
Other researchers also say about hemp or sinew bowstring in Siberia: "The length of the bowstring, which Vili of nettle or hemp tow, was at 25-30 cm shorter than the bow. Sometimes it is prepared from tendons. bowstring polished, extending through the holes in the tree, and did at the ends of ears. Ready bowstring sometimes glued over bark (Dmitriev-Gy Gardeners. ... Look Vakh Ostyaks S. 7-8: Cited. SVDKN on. "
"The finished bow wore a removable string. In the Chukchi, Evenki, Yakut bowstring was made from rawhide straps, the Ainu - bast. Khanty have it twist the two strands of hemp or nettle tow, soaked, stretched by winding on wooden sticks, dried, re-soaked in hot glue, stretched and dried, then hang with birch bark. The peoples of the Amur were used for bowstrings purchase silk threads. There are several ways to mount the bowstring: the Ainu, Nanai, it tied through the holes on the ends of the shaft, in Mansi superimposed on the longitudinal or cross-cutting on flagstaff, Aleuts, Chukchi, Koryak hang a noose on the beveled ends of the shaft, the Nivkh, Chuvans, Yakut, Khanty, Nenets, Komi-Zyryans was attached to the spec. chashkoobraznoy form on a pole "(FE).
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Dusan
- Posts: 990
- Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:29 pm
- Location: Slovakia
Here is links -direct to these Bronze tribs culturs Adam
http://history.novosibdom.ru/?q=node/40
http://history.novosibdom.ru/?q=node/41
for these people who can read russian or tranlate - very interesting site vith global Siberia old culturs information .
http://history.novosibdom.ru/?q=node/40
http://history.novosibdom.ru/?q=node/41
for these people who can read russian or tranlate - very interesting site vith global Siberia old culturs information .
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Adam Karpowicz
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- Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:57 am
- Location: Canada
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jiao
- Posts: 663
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- Location: china
- Contact:
Moscow Kremlin
http://hfsword.com/bbs/viewthread.php?tid=32595
http://hfsword.com/bbs/viewthread.php?tid=32595
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Dusan
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- Location: Slovakia
Ilustrations from A.P.Medvedev book "Bows and arrows "
Archeological places 1,4,11 -Sargec, 2-Turov, 3,6 -Bolgar, 5-Biliar, 7,9-Kylasov ,10- Soljanka, 12 - Stretovky, 13 - Vojna
1,4,5 - Ust Kamenka, 6,7,10 - ?estovickij
Metal parts of "kolchan" quivers 8-10 c.
1-Porechie, 2,3 -imerevsk, 4,5 -Berezki, 7,8 - Bolshe-Tarchanskij, 9- Dmitrijevskij, 10-Gnezdovskij, 11,12,13 - Timerovskij
Bone quiver parts :
1-Sarrel, 2 - Solianina, 3,10,12 - Biliar, 6- Beloozero,7,8 - Novgorod,11 - Kilasov
wood parts
1,2 - Novgorod, 3,8,10 - Bolgar,4 - Doneck, 5- Sarkel /white Tower/, 7, Smolensk
bone Thumbrins
1- Berke Sarai, 2 Uvek, 3- Volga Bulgar, 4 Beloretchensk kurgan, 5 - hand protect bone plate belaia vezha /White Tower/
Bow bone plates
1,9 - Zelenka, 2,7,4 - Suslovskij Mog., 3 - Kalinovskij mog., 6 - Tmutarakan ( vith personal pictogram Kniaza /Lord/ Mstislav Danilovich), 8,9 - Ladoga /white Tower/
From PB.Konovalov -Hun transbaikal funerar monuments- Ulan Ude Buryat Publishing house.
Archeological places 1,4,11 -Sargec, 2-Turov, 3,6 -Bolgar, 5-Biliar, 7,9-Kylasov ,10- Soljanka, 12 - Stretovky, 13 - Vojna
1,4,5 - Ust Kamenka, 6,7,10 - ?estovickij
Metal parts of "kolchan" quivers 8-10 c.
1-Porechie, 2,3 -imerevsk, 4,5 -Berezki, 7,8 - Bolshe-Tarchanskij, 9- Dmitrijevskij, 10-Gnezdovskij, 11,12,13 - Timerovskij
Bone quiver parts :
1-Sarrel, 2 - Solianina, 3,10,12 - Biliar, 6- Beloozero,7,8 - Novgorod,11 - Kilasov
wood parts
1,2 - Novgorod, 3,8,10 - Bolgar,4 - Doneck, 5- Sarkel /white Tower/, 7, Smolensk
bone Thumbrins
1- Berke Sarai, 2 Uvek, 3- Volga Bulgar, 4 Beloretchensk kurgan, 5 - hand protect bone plate belaia vezha /White Tower/
Bow bone plates
1,9 - Zelenka, 2,7,4 - Suslovskij Mog., 3 - Kalinovskij mog., 6 - Tmutarakan ( vith personal pictogram Kniaza /Lord/ Mstislav Danilovich), 8,9 - Ladoga /white Tower/
From PB.Konovalov -Hun transbaikal funerar monuments- Ulan Ude Buryat Publishing house.
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Dusan
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jack farrell
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- Location: Texas
Adam and all; Not only do these siyahs appear to be v-grooved but the archaeologists are aware that these precede any others known. The joinery looks to be a horizontal splice rather than vertical as would be expected.
Am I correct to understand that the discussion is about two wood bows, that these two siyahs would be mounted on a D type bow? Elliptical, as the discussion indicates?
As a side note, it is interesting how a well established and complicated Scythian style comes crashing down and is directly replaced by another complicated and yet very dissimilar Hunnic type without some transition.
Am I correct to understand that the discussion is about two wood bows, that these two siyahs would be mounted on a D type bow? Elliptical, as the discussion indicates?
As a side note, it is interesting how a well established and complicated Scythian style comes crashing down and is directly replaced by another complicated and yet very dissimilar Hunnic type without some transition.
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Adam Karpowicz
- Posts: 753
- Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:57 am
- Location: Canada
Jack, in my understanding, the authors never mention horn at all. Actually they say the all wood laminated construction with no bone plates, was the older design, preceding later Middle Age bows with bone plates (as illustrated). They do not say if the later bows had horn or not (we can probably assume most had). They seem to relate the two curved siyahs on the picture to later bows, presumably Tatar etc.
I see a vertical V-splice in the lower siyah and a limb oval on cross-section. The upper was probably cut when disassembled.
Maybe Dusan will chime in. What is the orig. Russian link to this article?
Adam
I see a vertical V-splice in the lower siyah and a limb oval on cross-section. The upper was probably cut when disassembled.
Maybe Dusan will chime in. What is the orig. Russian link to this article?
Adam
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Dusan
- Posts: 990
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well boys, here is link
http://nativeurals.narod.ru/sibwarbow.htm
Article talked about wood bow evolution.Titul is " Bow and arrow, the middle of the II millennium".
http://nativeurals.narod.ru/sibwarbow.htm
Article talked about wood bow evolution.Titul is " Bow and arrow, the middle of the II millennium".
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jack farrell
- Posts: 1864
- Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:40 am
- Location: Texas
"These bows consisted of two wooden (from different species) to be thoroughly treated and-fitting plates. Maximum of width in the shoulders as high as 4 cm length kibiti ranged from 120-145 cm in the upper die section is a strongly flattened segment, the lower - slightly more convex shape. Among themselves they fastened flat sides so that the bow arm in the plan represented the ellipse. In the central part of the bow flat-out in longitudinal section, but expanded in the cross, recalling from the back of an elongated figure eight. In some cases, the central part of the reinforcement was fixed wooden extension (overlay). The ends of bows were cut from separate pieces of wood and inserted into the spine between the upper and lower components.
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Dusan
- Posts: 990
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- Location: Slovakia
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Dusan
- Posts: 990
- Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:29 pm
- Location: Slovakia
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jack farrell
- Posts: 1864
- Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:40 am
- Location: Texas
Dusan; This is absolutely brilliant. I have this Tagarsk illustration from a Russian book but forgot about it, and from not so long ago. Although it is possible the Tagarsk Scythian bow has a traditional horn and wood construction, it is also possible that it is a two wood construction with a laid in separate siyah and maybe an overlaid grip riser according to the text.
This would be a very exciting possibility indeed.
Either way it does appear to be a horizonal V-scarf predecessor to the V-groove. (There would not be a groove. Somehow in translating the Russian it states that the siyah piece ends in a mortise which would be a type of hole but actually ends in the male part, a tenon)
This would be a very exciting possibility indeed.
Either way it does appear to be a horizonal V-scarf predecessor to the V-groove. (There would not be a groove. Somehow in translating the Russian it states that the siyah piece ends in a mortise which would be a type of hole but actually ends in the male part, a tenon)