Turkish Bows

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:57 pm

Adam; What great bows!

Here are some arrows and quivers from the same museum.

Kyudohund; Is the other museum the folk craft museum? I saw some other material there. We were not allowed to photograph and a guard followed us about! Maybe he was right to watch. I was told by a publisher in Germany that even if one "steals" a picture in Europe, it is the property of the photographer and they were willing to publish.

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:05 pm

Some countries had sumptuary laws which prevented people from wearing objects not appropriate for their station in life. In a day when velvet was hand made like a rug, it was extremely expensive and reserved for elite persons. Thus this quiver (and all the others in the cases) may have been reserved for elites.

Maybe a Turkish ATARNite can comment.

One can easily make out that these arrows are split out of a coniferous wood. The arrows are in color coordinating sets rather than matching.

Daniel T. · Post by **Daniel T.** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:23 am

Beautiful equipment! I'm really looking forward to my visit to Vienna next week! Happy me!

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:27 am

These pics are from Wiena too, i thing. Nice bows!Pics are from mi friend.

Kyudohund · Post by **Kyudohund** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:46 am

Jack, its the museum of historical art; this information is from the book "Reflexbogen". I didn?t see it myself. In Austria normally its not allowed to take pictures in a museum. Copyright???

Dusan: the first four pictures I made in the abbey of Kremsm?nster, about 25 km from my hometown. It was too not allowed to take fotos, but the nice guide-woman "looked away"

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:00 am

well, its very close 25 km...

I envy you. I know its personal pics "secret shot". If its problem admin can delet . But i think for Atarns very interesting...

Kyudohund · Post by **Kyudohund** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:03 am

No problem!

Gokmen · Post by **Gokmen** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:45 pm

is it a copyright problem or a 'flash' problem why you cant take pictures in Austrian museums? That's a pity. What about video?
Seeing and taking pictures of Ottoman arms and armour was the main goal of my planned visit to Vienna.
Is there a good museum catalogue at least with good pictures?

G?kmen

Kyudohund · Post by **Kyudohund** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:59 am

G?kmen,

its a copyright problem.

You can have a look in www.khm.at - service - rights & reproduction.
This museum is a conclusion of some buildings in the center, which are very closed together, exept Schloss Ambras, which is in federal land of Tirol (about 400 km from Vienna). In some rooms are observation cameras, since a very clever thief came over a window in the museum and stole the world famous Saliera from Benvenuto Cellini. He was owner of a shop for secutity staff and ... drunken! He refunded it after three years. For him it was just a joke ...

The Arsenal (Heeresgeschichtliches Museum) with a section "The turkish wars", is in the south, look in www.hgm.at. When i was there, i had no problems to take a video, but nobody other was in the room. Ther are four bows, a few dozen of arrows, bow cases and quivers in one show case.

At the entrance of the museums, there are shops where are cataloques, postcards, pictures, etc. to sell.

I will inform me, if there is way to get a permission to take fotos.

Till then
Peter

Kyudohund · Post by **Kyudohund** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:04 am

Sorry Arsenal is www.hgm.or.at

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:06 pm

I believe that the reason museums stop you from taking pictures is because if you do, the pictures belong to you. The museum wants to hoard the images so they might one day publish their own book and want strong demand.

In my eyes, this is in direct conflict with a museum's purpose to educate. You must pay admission already. It is all about money.

In 2001 everyone was allowed to photograph in the arsenal museum. So enjoy at my treat.

Kyudohund · Post by **Kyudohund** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:11 pm

totally right

Gokmen · Post by **Gokmen** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:44 pm

Peter, I did the virtual tour of that museum from the link you gave, pretty impressive all in all.

Jack, I think velvet was far more widespread with the Turks than in Europe. Remember the Europeans visitors of that time said 'they are going to war as if to a wedding'

Dusan, on your first set of pics you see the white nock of the arrow, do you think it is bone or white horn? I tested camel bone for nocks, it is very durable but it is also too heavy on the arrow.

Adam, I cant stop looking at those pics of your bows again and again. As a horsearcher I find them highly interesting.
Cem once told me the bows in the miniatures are so short that the kasans point towards each other and this makes the bow 'more stable' at full draw.
How do you achieve the negative angle of the kasans? In your book you wrote that the transition of sal/kasan is slightly thinner for warbows. Do the negative angled kasans have any other benefit?

thank you

G?kmen Altınkulp

Dusan · Post by **Dusan** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:12 pm

I thing its white hard wood /like cornus mass or so../ and white color painting. Maybe (?)

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:34 am

Museums in Australia rarely have admission fees, but they do have for large foreign exhibitions. One of the reasons they don't like flash photography is the possibility of degrading fabrics and dyes (the same reason that they avoid direct sunlight). While mineral pigments are very stable and steel armour will not fade, arranging for some parts of a cabinet to be photographed and others not to be would be a nightmare.

Museums need to make money for the maintenance of their collections and to expand them. Selling photographs of their items is one way to raise money. I have bought photographs for research and if I want to use them I may have to pay a licensing fee for publication.

Here in Australia, we pay huge insurance costs to bring out international exhibitions. Damage in transit, theft or vandalism are real risks and insurance companies make sure they cover their exposure. In Brisbane, a major flood this year had people scrambling to get objects out of the path of the water. Therefore not all the money raised by entrance fees goes to the museum.

I suggest that it would be worthwhile to request photographs from the Museums directly. I know from personal experience that they don't always respond, but some museums are very helpful. If you explain that you want images for research and that the Museum would be fully acknowledged and that this would probably lead to more visitors, they might be more cooperative. Remember, the person standing on the floor directing the public will not be able to make a decision. You will have to approach the curator.

State museums are often stricter than private ones, but this is because everything they do is tied up in red tape and bureaucracy. I know that information I have found here on ATARN has led me to learn of collections that I otherwise would not have found for months, if ever. I think that, if the museums are made aware of the potential for exposure of their collections on this type of forum, they might be more cooperative.