12 points for horseback archers.

Zarasp · Post by **Zarasp** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:19 pm

here are some things according to what i know from Persian Horseback Archery.

1.know your maneuver space on horse, keep the bow handle firmly on horse whiters for back Tirkash & firmly on the tip of the tirkash for belt Tirkash.

2.Never use arrows as whip for the horse, the horse must never think of an arrow as a threat.

3.Always keep arrows in quiver, fast movements & playing of a horse with unprotected arrows is dangerous for both horse & rider.

4.always tie the tail of the horse before shooting, same for hair on withers.

5.shoot the arrow while are 4 legs are off the ground.

6.beware of the bottom of the bow touching horse's back while doing a Parthian shot.

7.aim left, for Parthian shot & front shots, shoot few meters before the target for side shots.

8.eliminate all unnecessary movement of the upper body.

9.if the horse has never seen bow and arrow, let him smell it and then touch his chest in a kind matter, do the same while riding before shooting.

10.use the weight, seat & knees to guide the horse without using hands.

11.never look at the soofar (nock) for loading.lock on the target.

12.Practice dynamic shooting on foot.

Sit Tight & Enjoy!

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:58 am

Zarasp,
While I agree with some of your points, I think others are more to do with modern systems of riding than those practised in Iran before the introduction of Western cavalry training.

I have seen photographs from Luristan in the 1930s showing horsemen with exactly the same bridle and reins as in Safavid miniatures. What I am talking about is the use of a simple bridle, a ring bit with a strap running up from the ring through the throat latch back down under the breast strap to the girth. This is the same equipment that Iranian riders always use when contrasted with Turanian warriors in the paintings. The Turanians are shown with snaffle bits and half nose bands.

It is part 10 that I have some problems with. The standard approach was to train the horse to run straight while shooting with the reins dropped. Shooting and manoeuvring were rarely tried at the same time. If your horse responds to leg aids while you are shooting, it might think you want it to turn when instead you are turning in the saddle to shoot at someone off to the rear. Anything that confuses the horse puts your life at risk. I am referring to subtle movements of the body and weight rather than emergency changes meant to save you from a collision.

Number 5 is something that has come up recently, but is really a result of most modern archers sitting down in their saddles rather than standing and leaning forward. I doubt that most old horse archers ever worried about the position of their horses' feet. They usually shot at full gallop, not the fast canter you see in Europe, and kept their bodies steady while absorbing the horse's movement with their legs.

I have had number 6 happen and luckily the horse did not worry, but it certainly is a risk that if the horse is hit it might shy and cause the rider some serious problems.

I think your recommendations enhance the safety in shooting and should be encouraged. It is important that the horse not feel threatened by the archery equipment. I saw a horse go into a panic once because it saw the bow move out of the corner of its eye. No one was hurt, but that was because of the rider's fast reflexes. Some horses are too nervous to be used in horse archery without considerable training.

We used to take the arrows and let the horse nuzzle them to convince it that they were not a threat (and not edible). Horses were happy to stand around while we were shooting and I think that desensitised them to having arrows shot from their backs. Familiarity with the noises and sight of the equipment is a good practice.

Zarasp · Post by **Zarasp** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:56 pm

yes you are right,
some of these i learned from tradition, rest of them (numbers 5-9) came from dealing with people afraid of full gallop! hehe.

although I learned archery must be in gallop,last week i saw a video of a man called Kassay and his horse was so slow but he was very fast, he didnt do many of these things,eg. tying tail, putting hand on tirkash etc... but he was a very good archer in my opinion,

but about number 10, i think a good horseman must be able to HINT his horse about the direction he wants without confusing him, i find it absolutely essential for horseback archery, we take the good students on racetrack where they try (and sometimes dont succeed) in bringing a very fast horse to the center & closer to the target using only the opposite knee pressure, if they dont do it, they will have to shoot from 20+ meters to the side which i have NEVER seen happen successfully, at least WE are not good enough to do that.

we spend at least one day with a new horse before giving it to the students, most of our horses need less than an hour before we consider them cooperative and safe, maybe because they have Polo experience.

thanx very much for the insight.

Zarasp.

ps.please share the bridle photos or sketches if possible.

lars andersen · Post by **lars andersen** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:44 pm

No. 5 I believe, like Bede that it's something new
A war archer may shoot at the exact moment where it is possible
and not wait for the horse's movement.

I do think you're right that Horseback Archery can only be done at a gallop.
I do not shoot a bow from horseback, but last week I was out and help
some Horseback Archery with bow technique.
And while I trained them, I looked at them with my foot archery experience,
I believe that Horseback Archery can only be done at a gallop,
otherwise the horse and the man is just a big easy target !

Maybe it's why many cultures never used bows on horseback,
they were not fast and good enough riders that it was an advantage?

sincerely,
Lars Andersen

Gokmen · Post by **Gokmen** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:29 pm

Good point Lars. I always try to emphasize this point. Our horseback archer ancestors, be it Ottoman or Seljuk, had to be faster than a European Knight of that time, charging at full gallop at them with a lance

Just have a look at these:
http://youtu.be/e5KOL98W6j0

If you are not fast enough you gonna be pierced by a lance, that simple.

thanks

Gokmen

Zarasp · Post by **Zarasp** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:34 pm

please everyone!

if you want to think of archery as a sport, please dont think of only wars & warriors,
also, hunters were probably very effective in strengthening techniques for archery ,
catching boar or hunting rabbits on horse is so beautiful & exciting & it is also much more recent than the wars....
i hope to someday show the horse following rabbits on video....

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:05 am

Some very good points have been made here. It is important to differentiate horse archery the sport from horse archery used in hunting and war. The two major exercises used in the Middle East for horse archery, qabaq and qighaj shooting were both training for war by developing dexterity and accuracy and demonstrations of the skill of the participants before their military superiors and the general public.

Even though Yabusame for instance is a long way away from war archery, it has preserved many of the preoccupations of military horse archers. I have seen this done at the gallop and the speed and dexterity is impressive. I have also watched Kassai Lajos practicing and he is a very good archer. I believe the slower pace used by him and many horse archers today is due to the fact that in sport archery, there isn't the same pressure to get in and get out quickly. After all, no one is usually shooting back.

Rabbits have been a preoccupation in Australia for years, but the general experience is that rabbit holes are bad for horses' legs. May I suggest hunting hares. They don't dig holes. The Manchu emperors thought they were good sport from horseback.

I do agree that you must maintain some leg control of your horse. I have seen film from Mongolia of a horseman shooting an AK47 at full gallop. He almost threw his little horse to one side to correct its course. The filming was head on and it was not a subtle riding school move. What I was commenting on was the concept that there was a lot of leg control used. Some of the techniques used in shooting from horseback are hard to imagine if the horse was paying attention to the rider's legs. My understanding of military technique in the nineteenth century was that the horse ignored leg aids after the reins were dropped, but was trained to obey them when the reins were in use.

Zarasp · Post by **Zarasp** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:42 am

Bede wrote: Some of the techniques used in shooting from horseback are hard to imagine if the horse was paying attention to the rider's legs

This is an absolutely valid point & in horseback archery, even today, teaching the horse to go straight is a must,

my point is that when we look at it as a sport it becomes more competitive.

from my own Personal experience,
2 riders with equal skills, 90m course, single shot Korean style, same horse.

1st scenario:

1st rider scores a 4 & rides with same speed to finish line.
2nd rider scores a 4 & applies leg pressure & seat after hitting the target at 45 meters.

of course the second rider will have a faster time & thus win.

2nd scenario:

1st rider leaves the horse in a track that is 4m wide, target is 5m away from the track ,
he shoots the target to the side from 5-9 meters depending on what path the horse chooses.
2nd rider brings horse inside, & shoots from 5m disregarding of what horse wants.

i think the 2nd rider has a better chance of a higher score.

and of course as Bede mentioned, its very important to do these without confusing the horse,
so if one does not posses top horsemanship skills, its best just to leave the horse & not confuse him.

in my humble opinion these are the details which will help the SPORT of horseback archery to reach the next level without
harming the rich historical backgrounds
& also gain more respect for the sport,
critiques of horseback archery need to see that it is not just a historical reenactment
but a real competitive sport, in which technique , multiple skills & tactic is measured to the limits.

Zarasp.

Zarasp · Post by **Zarasp** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:53 pm

Bede wrote: Rabbits have been a preoccupation in Australia for years, but the general experience is that rabbit holes are bad for horses' legs.

OH, our rabbits dont make holes, the make nests, maybe its a different rabbit from Australia, this exercise is done very close to our horse complex, & Polo horses & riders like it, its not really galloping but more of a Stop-Start sort of exercise, currently we dont shoot them, we go with polo people, we just sit tight & enjoy the view! (although i am really tempted to bring a bow there, hehe)

lars andersen · Post by **lars andersen** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:51 pm

It must be a very clear distinction between sport and the ancient war and hunting.

Kassai Lajos is a good example, he is a great archer and horseman
and will be mentioned in history to have invented a modern horseback archery sports. and it is good
But his "sport" is mixed together with Hungary folklore, costumes and modern carbon fiber bows
disguised as traditional bows and some semi-religious
and with a story around that they are the true historical archers, and so it is problematic.

Zarasp
I look forward to one day see a video where you are hunting rabbits

sincerely,
Lars Andersen

Zarasp · Post by **Zarasp** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:45 pm

lars andersen wrote:It must be a very clear distinction between sport and the ancient war and hunting.

Kassai Lajos is a good example, he is a great archer and horseman
and will be mentioned in history to have invented a modern horseback archery sports. and it is good
But his "sport" is mixed together with Hungary folklore, costumes and modern carbon fiber bows
disguised as traditional bows and some semi-religious
and with a story around that they are the true historical archers, and so it is problematic.

Yes i have tried many of his bows & i have seen his videos i am also reading his book, i have alot of respect for his hard work & dedication but his way of archery & horsemanship is very different from what i know.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:27 am

Zarasp,
From your description of the nests, what you call rabbits, we call hares.

Zarasp · Post by **Zarasp** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:24 am

Bede wrote:Zarasp,
From your description of the nests, what you call rabbits, we call hares.

LOL! once again my lack of skill in english vocabulary...

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:01 am

Not all native English speakers know the difference. Your English is fine.

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:52 pm

Dear Zarasp, May I see a picture of the horses you are riding?