Hello everyone,
I want to propose a scoring system & get the thoughts of more experienced archers here, i am hoping to use it here
in our complex after possible corrections.
Please imagine 3 archers, 4 targets, max. score 20, time limit:10s
results:
archer#1: 16 points in 8 seconds(2s faster than limit)
archer#2: 16 points in 10 seconds
archer#3: 16 points in 12 seconds(2s slower than limit)
to include both dexterity & skill of archery, i suggest to calculate the point/second of each archer as a measurement of their performance,
we get:
archer#1: 2.00points/s
archer#2: 1.60points/s
archer#3: 1.33points/s
current systems regard #1 & #2 equal in performance & give same points, they deduct points from (or completely eliminate) #3 but:
archer#1 : is obviously a faster archer on foot too & based on his performance , assuming he could continue, he
would score another 4 points in the extra 2 seconds if he had the
chance!
archer#3: based on his performance, in that extra 2 seconds he gained
2.66 points (2x1.33), that he would not have, if he finished on time.
I think that it would be logical to give scores is to consider the
above & add & deduct points accordingly.
the faults of the current scoring systems are much more evident if fewer targets & more times differences are used.
your thoughts please...
Proposal for a scoring system
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Zarasp
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Dan
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Hi Zarasp,
Like you, I have thought for a while that the system of scoring was unfair in that it rewarded you for going at precisely the right speed and essentially penalised you for going quickly (the allotted times being basically a medium canter).
It may interest you to know (if you haven't heard already) that at this year's World Championships the rules were changed for all future WHAF events. Now you gain points for going under the allotted time. In you example, archer #1 would now get 2 additional points (1 for each second).
Personally, I think the new system slightly favours speed over accuracy (especially in the single and double shot events) and I would like to see this rectified, either by halving the time points or by increasing the number of scoring zones on the target face, so that a really accurate shot was more highly rewarded.
Of course, I'm an archer who isn't a great rider, so I would say that, wouldn't I?
Like you, I have thought for a while that the system of scoring was unfair in that it rewarded you for going at precisely the right speed and essentially penalised you for going quickly (the allotted times being basically a medium canter).
It may interest you to know (if you haven't heard already) that at this year's World Championships the rules were changed for all future WHAF events. Now you gain points for going under the allotted time. In you example, archer #1 would now get 2 additional points (1 for each second).
Personally, I think the new system slightly favours speed over accuracy (especially in the single and double shot events) and I would like to see this rectified, either by halving the time points or by increasing the number of scoring zones on the target face, so that a really accurate shot was more highly rewarded.
Of course, I'm an archer who isn't a great rider, so I would say that, wouldn't I?
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Zarasp
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- Location: Iran Tehran
Hi Dan,
thank you for the response,
in my humble opinion giving points just for going faster is unfair
it is not based on the performance of the archer, just on time!!!!
giving or reducing points based ONLY on a time limit is meaningless unless we consider what the archer could do in those few seconds,
i think BOTH accuracy & time need to be considered, i think we should consider one's performance in time ie. point/second.
since i put this up i have been using this system with my friend/students & it is moving everybody towards faster nocking, more accurate shooting .
i think a good direction for this sport,
i hope more experienced archers here, help us with responding & putting ideas on the table.
thank you for the response,
in my humble opinion giving points just for going faster is unfair
it is not based on the performance of the archer, just on time!!!!
giving or reducing points based ONLY on a time limit is meaningless unless we consider what the archer could do in those few seconds,
i think BOTH accuracy & time need to be considered, i think we should consider one's performance in time ie. point/second.
since i put this up i have been using this system with my friend/students & it is moving everybody towards faster nocking, more accurate shooting .
i think a good direction for this sport,
i hope more experienced archers here, help us with responding & putting ideas on the table.
Last edited by Zarasp on Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Chaka Zulu
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- Location: Sussex, UK
Hi Zarasp,
At EOCHA this year there was another development in the scoring system. I the multiple shot event you only had to hit one of the five targets, which in my opinion was a step in the wrong direction as it removes the need for quick accurate shooting.
More positively, however, they also awarded 3 bonus points for hitting 3 targets in a row, or 5 bonus points if you hit all 5 targets. This was, in my opinion, a huge step forward. It meant that those who galloped the course in 12 seconds but only shot every alternate target may have gained points for speed but those could be made up by somebody who rode slowly enough to hit everything. Those who rode slowly but were not accurate still scored few points. I think we may adopt this one in Britain.
Incidentally, I got back from EOCHA and read about your fall. I am so glad that you are OK. By coincidence, I also fell at EOCHA and although my fall was nothing compared to yours, I did land head first on a fence post, so I was also pretty glad that I was wearing a helmet. Hopefully the last time either of us will need one, although I certainly intend to keep wearing mine!
Dan
At EOCHA this year there was another development in the scoring system. I the multiple shot event you only had to hit one of the five targets, which in my opinion was a step in the wrong direction as it removes the need for quick accurate shooting.
More positively, however, they also awarded 3 bonus points for hitting 3 targets in a row, or 5 bonus points if you hit all 5 targets. This was, in my opinion, a huge step forward. It meant that those who galloped the course in 12 seconds but only shot every alternate target may have gained points for speed but those could be made up by somebody who rode slowly enough to hit everything. Those who rode slowly but were not accurate still scored few points. I think we may adopt this one in Britain.
Incidentally, I got back from EOCHA and read about your fall. I am so glad that you are OK. By coincidence, I also fell at EOCHA and although my fall was nothing compared to yours, I did land head first on a fence post, so I was also pretty glad that I was wearing a helmet. Hopefully the last time either of us will need one, although I certainly intend to keep wearing mine!
Dan
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Gokmen
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This is a very good topic and one problem which is still unsolved.
How do you reward competitors with points, there is 2 main factors, which influence each other which makes it really complicated, speed and hits on the target.
As far as I have seen on today's horsearchery competitions, going in slow canter is rewarded more than going faster. The same archer will get more points by riding slower so that he/she can hit all the targets on Korean style rather than riding fast and having less opportunity to shoot, and here I am not even talking about hitting, but just shooting.
Same applies for Hungarian style.
The reward for hitting 3 or 5 targets punishes you even more if you have a fast horse and as seen in the last competitions big differences in the scores might occur.
Zarasps method is more fair, I actually like it. But in my opinion it is complicated and hard to understand for the spectators and rider. The future should be that you have a digital board and see the points after each ride. And people should understand immediately if a run was good or not, which is not easy with Zarasps method.
My goal is always to stick as closely as possible to the way it was done in history. Nobody would canter ? la modern Hungarian style, it has no practical value at all. The historic horsearchers rode fast (and could control their horse's speed). The tracks were longer as well which is an important detail.
I have in mind to have e.g. a 160m Korean 5 target style track and have the targets further apart from each other e.g. 40 meters and control speed by a tight time limit.
This way you are fast but still have to nock fast but you will be able to shoot all targets and nobody can abuse the discipline by riding slow.
Even without a time limit there would be no motivation to ride slow as even a fast rider could hit all targets as they are further apart.
Another point regarding rules, which I want to mention here is the full draw. I see that many competitors use half draw voluntarily or involuntarily. This would also be historically unimaginable. Especially at Korean style this is unfair as it actually works, the targets are just 5 meter away. The arrow just have to stick so much that it doesnt bounce back and fall on the ground.
For the competition in Biga in which I am involved we added this rule that all shots have to be made with a full draw.
Gokmen Altinkulp
How do you reward competitors with points, there is 2 main factors, which influence each other which makes it really complicated, speed and hits on the target.
As far as I have seen on today's horsearchery competitions, going in slow canter is rewarded more than going faster. The same archer will get more points by riding slower so that he/she can hit all the targets on Korean style rather than riding fast and having less opportunity to shoot, and here I am not even talking about hitting, but just shooting.
Same applies for Hungarian style.
The reward for hitting 3 or 5 targets punishes you even more if you have a fast horse and as seen in the last competitions big differences in the scores might occur.
Zarasps method is more fair, I actually like it. But in my opinion it is complicated and hard to understand for the spectators and rider. The future should be that you have a digital board and see the points after each ride. And people should understand immediately if a run was good or not, which is not easy with Zarasps method.
My goal is always to stick as closely as possible to the way it was done in history. Nobody would canter ? la modern Hungarian style, it has no practical value at all. The historic horsearchers rode fast (and could control their horse's speed). The tracks were longer as well which is an important detail.
I have in mind to have e.g. a 160m Korean 5 target style track and have the targets further apart from each other e.g. 40 meters and control speed by a tight time limit.
This way you are fast but still have to nock fast but you will be able to shoot all targets and nobody can abuse the discipline by riding slow.
Even without a time limit there would be no motivation to ride slow as even a fast rider could hit all targets as they are further apart.
Another point regarding rules, which I want to mention here is the full draw. I see that many competitors use half draw voluntarily or involuntarily. This would also be historically unimaginable. Especially at Korean style this is unfair as it actually works, the targets are just 5 meter away. The arrow just have to stick so much that it doesnt bounce back and fall on the ground.
For the competition in Biga in which I am involved we added this rule that all shots have to be made with a full draw.
Gokmen Altinkulp
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Zarasp
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@Dan, i am glad you are OK, i'm also glad to see that the competition organizers are striving for a better system. i read about the Polish style, christian Schrade said it was a blast, are there any online clips of the competition?
@Gokmen, sometimes you speak my mind , full draw law is definitely a step forward & it is a very annoying thing among modern horse archers, as Uli Welner put it, a horse archer must attack the target not just hit it.
you are right that it takes time to calculate, although less than a minute, still might be too slow , specially for large competitions.
i hope to see the day that horse archery competition use a fair, easy & most importantly ONE UNIFIED scoring system.
@Gokmen, sometimes you speak my mind , full draw law is definitely a step forward & it is a very annoying thing among modern horse archers, as Uli Welner put it, a horse archer must attack the target not just hit it.
you are right that it takes time to calculate, although less than a minute, still might be too slow , specially for large competitions.
i hope to see the day that horse archery competition use a fair, easy & most importantly ONE UNIFIED scoring system.
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Zarasp
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Gokmen
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Regarding the half draw in horseback archery competitions there is another trick people do to be faster. Most of them do. They lean forward towards the target. This way the head comes further forward. So even if you draw near your chin it is still a half draw in terms of inches. Only about 60% of the arrow is drawn and the arrow sticks out. It might be called the 'hidden' half draw. You see this in all EOCHA videos.
(It has another implication, a bow that is originally 40 lbs at 28inch becomes maybe only 25lbs at half draw.)
But it is really tough where to draw the line and disqualify people. And most of the competitors do this or similar things, even, and especially the people who get the best points. So do you want to disqualify everybody? You cant do that either.
Gokmen
(It has another implication, a bow that is originally 40 lbs at 28inch becomes maybe only 25lbs at half draw.)
But it is really tough where to draw the line and disqualify people. And most of the competitors do this or similar things, even, and especially the people who get the best points. So do you want to disqualify everybody? You cant do that either.
Gokmen
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Chaka Zulu
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If imposing a full draw rule, can I suggest not lookingat what proportion of the arrow is drawn but on where the draw hand goes? My arrows are a few inches too long to allow for possible overdraw in the heat of the moment or a bouncy horse. And so others can borrow them. At full draw I plull about 75% of the arrow. It's not efficient but it's better than an arrow in the hand and I shouldn't be penalised for it!
I actually feel that without the bonus points the balance has gone too far in favour of speed, now that you gain points for going faster. For me the cure is either bonus points or more scoring zones on the target. My preferred idea is more zones: bonus points only apply to multi shot and reward inaccurate shots as well as accurate ones (1 point is not an accurate shot at 5-7m in my view). With a 10 zone target the man who hits 3 9s at fast speed is not punished, but the man who gallops and just about puts three arrow on the target will not beat the slightly slower man who puts it in the middle each time.
The other option is intruducing a cutoff time. Maybe if you don't finish the multishot within 5s of the time, you score nothing, even if you did hit them all? I'm wary of that though: at eocha my little horse kept trying right tO the end but was so tired he just couldn't do it quicker than 21s. In Korea my horse again got very tired. I was taking 24-25s, driving him all the way.
I actually feel that without the bonus points the balance has gone too far in favour of speed, now that you gain points for going faster. For me the cure is either bonus points or more scoring zones on the target. My preferred idea is more zones: bonus points only apply to multi shot and reward inaccurate shots as well as accurate ones (1 point is not an accurate shot at 5-7m in my view). With a 10 zone target the man who hits 3 9s at fast speed is not punished, but the man who gallops and just about puts three arrow on the target will not beat the slightly slower man who puts it in the middle each time.
The other option is intruducing a cutoff time. Maybe if you don't finish the multishot within 5s of the time, you score nothing, even if you did hit them all? I'm wary of that though: at eocha my little horse kept trying right tO the end but was so tired he just couldn't do it quicker than 21s. In Korea my horse again got very tired. I was taking 24-25s, driving him all the way.
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Chaka Zulu
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Out of interest, where are you going to draw the line? This could get really contraversial unless you've got video replay of every shot and are prepare to disqualiy people for what may be a difference in shooting style.Gokmen wrote:But it is really tough where to draw the line and disqualify people. And most of the competitors do this or similar things, even, and especially the people who get the best points. So do you want to disqualify everybody? You cant do that either.
On a related note, I've just been browsing ATARN and came across this thread: http://198.170.107.188/phpBB2/viewtopic ... sc&start=0
Note the few posts saying that ancient Chinese texts suggest not coming to full draw...
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Justin Ma
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Chaka Zulu
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Zarasp
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LOL, very true!Chaka Zulu wrote:And I thought dividing the score by the time would be too complicated!Justin Ma wrote:what about an arrow penetration criterion instead of a full draw criterion? make the minimum penetration proportional to the bow's draw weight. just a thought.
right now i am covering our targets with a very thick wool material, impenetrable by light bows and sloppy draw, it initially reduced our speed but put an end to sloppy fast half draws,,, i am also kicking everyone who uses open nocks, lol!
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Chaka Zulu
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Zarasp, when you say that light bows won't penetrate it, how light are we talking?
Of course the counter argument could be made that since a really good light bow will be as powerful as a less good but heavier bow, what you are doing is rewarding good (expensive?) bows. That doesn't bother me, but just to be contraversial...
Interesting decision to make for juniors and women as well: do they get softer targets?
Of course the counter argument could be made that since a really good light bow will be as powerful as a less good but heavier bow, what you are doing is rewarding good (expensive?) bows. That doesn't bother me, but just to be contraversial...
Interesting decision to make for juniors and women as well: do they get softer targets?
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Zarasp
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Yes Dan that was my initial goal, doesn't matter how heavy the bow is as long as it is powerful, we dont want to blow the target up, lol, but as long as we get a good solid hit, i have seen some ridiculously light bows & i think they are a shame for the owner , the tradition & the sport.
as for women and kids, this is a man's game,i would love to see kids take up horse archery, & of course with light bows, women too, but they should not slow the progress of the sport as a whole , I strive for this tradition to become closer to the original not more popular.
I have seen too many terrible riders & too many terrible archers shooting on horse.
after all there's nothing wrong with ping pong or chess ....lol
my point is:
I understand & respect the modern point of view "horseback archery as a fun hobby for everyone"
but i hope that we also try to see & respect the other point of view "Horse archery=our ancient tradition of war & hunt"
as for women and kids, this is a man's game,i would love to see kids take up horse archery, & of course with light bows, women too, but they should not slow the progress of the sport as a whole , I strive for this tradition to become closer to the original not more popular.
I have seen too many terrible riders & too many terrible archers shooting on horse.
after all there's nothing wrong with ping pong or chess ....lol
my point is:
I understand & respect the modern point of view "horseback archery as a fun hobby for everyone"
but i hope that we also try to see & respect the other point of view "Horse archery=our ancient tradition of war & hunt"