Holding arrows in the bow hand

Dan · Post by **Dan** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:44 pm

We've all seen what I call the Hungarian or Kassai method of holding arrow in the bow hand and drawing them at what can be stunning speeds. In Europe most people use this method. In Asia I believe it's relatively rare (although I may be wrong and that isn't really the point of the thread). WHAF rules don't allow it (except for mogu).

It has always struck me as historically nonsensical. Quite apart from the odd mental image of Attila carefully arranging his arrows in that nice little fan shape that they use, I fail to see how you could possibly use that method with arrows that don't have modern target points but sharp edged broadheads.

Kassai talks in his book about how he basically invented the method because using a quiver wasn't 'quick enough'. I raise it now because a book I'm reading about Attila makes extensive reference to Kassai and more or less portrays him as Attila reborn and refers without comment to not using a quiver because it's not quick enough. (It also states that "there are other people who claim to teach horseback archery" - I stopped reading about there!

Am I right that this method is without historical precedent, or am I missing something?

Justin Ma · Post by **Justin Ma** » Sat Oct 01, 2011 7:34 am

Dan wrote:Am I right that this method is without historical precedent, or am I missing something?

There's historical precedent in China. In Stephen Selby's "Chinese Archery" there's a paragraph in the chapter that translates excerpts from Li Chengfen (an author from the Ming dynasty, 1600s). One of the paragraphs talks about how holding some arrows with the bow hand can help with speed shooting --- but this is with a thumb draw rather than a 3-finger draw. Granted, this is just one guy's opinion.

I don't have my copy of the book at the moment, so I'll have to find the specifics later.

Zarasp · Post by **Zarasp** » Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:08 am

there is a Parthian figure (247 BC ? 224 AD) that shows the arrows in bow hand also.

the modern method of holding arrows like a bird tail has some flaws:

1.it is extremely dangerous in case of fal or loss of balance.
2. it takes too much time to arrange
3. & most importantly: this loading method is practically useless on fast horses, because the one finger force does not provide enough stability against the wind in high speeds!!!!!!

note that Thumb method from back quiver & 2 finger Traditional draw have much greater stability & can withstand maneuvers & high wind force...

Dan · Post by **Dan** » Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:00 am

Thanks for the replies. Do either of you know how they went about getting the arrows from the hand to the string without slicing their fingers on the heads? I assume the Chinese one just pulled it downwards onto his thumb to shoot?

Zarasp, I'm a little confused by the one finger force and two finger force you talk about. I follow that the wind of a fast horse (or a slow one sometimes!) will blow the arrow off the hand, but what's the difference between the one and two fingers you're referring to?

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:08 pm

Plains Native Americans commonly held the arrows in the bow hand for speed in shooting. The method of positioning the arrows onto the string is not recorded.

Most Indians could ride without a saddle.

lars andersen · Post by **lars andersen** » Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:48 pm

In Arabic Archery is the method described:

"A fourth method of shooting shower arrows has been described by some professionals. This consists
of placing the bundle of arrows in the left hand and gripping it along with the handle of the bow. But
this is indeed wrong and results in no shower shooting. It is wrong because it renders the grip weak.
It results in no shower shooting because the archer will have to release his hand in order to bring the
next arrow into a shooting position."

sincerely,
Lars Andersen

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:46 pm

I personally found the first method as described in Arab Archery (nocks in drawing hand) to be very fast, although not suitable to be used on a horse since the arrow is pointing to the ground and it is swinged a lot when the arrow is nocked.

The second method, with the nocks between the fingers and arrows pointing forward (I assume since the book is not clear) is as fast or maybe a bit faster than the previous one, without having the safety drawbacks. The only problem is that it's hard to execute with heavy arrows or with too many arrows since you are only holding them from one end( the nock) and the arrows should be horizontal.

The third method: holding the arrows between the fingers (similar to what Dr Ozveri demonstrates on youtube) ,I found as being slower than the first two, because the draw hand is not in contact with the nock at all times. I do not understand why the book describes this method as being faster than the first two, although I may have not understood the text explanation correctly.

Chaka Zulu · Post by **Chaka Zulu** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:43 pm

jack farrell wrote:Plains Native Americans commonly held the arrows in the bow hand for speed in shooting. The method of positioning the arrows onto the string is not recorded

Now that I didn't know. Out of interest, what's the source?

lars andersen · Post by **lars andersen** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:26 pm

George Catlin describes in his study of the Mandan Indians
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Method 3 can be understood in several ways
Although I really like Dr Ozveri and his research, so I think that maybe the arrow should not move forward with your hands but instead is thrown forward in a jerk so that the arrow slides out between your fingers.

I've tried it a few times and I think it could be trained in a way so it can be done really quickly and in control.

video I made when I discussed it with Dr Ozveri
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCqNNww3ePA

sincerely,
Lars Andersen

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:58 pm

Try "American Indian Archery" by Reginald Laubin and Gladys Laubin
http://books.google.ro/books?id=xMF4Oqm ... &q&f=false

Gokmen · Post by **Gokmen** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:44 pm

the holding of arrows between the fingers in your drawing hand can be seen on a seljuk vase, seljuk coins and is described in an Ottoman horsearchery manual.

They describe only to take 2 arrows though. And also on the depictions you only see 2 max. For all these thoughts and theories you have to think of the times when these techniques were used on the battlefields. You also must not forget that horses were fast, nobody would ride in slow canter a la modern Hungarian style.
So with a fast war horse and with 2 arrows you could ride maybe 100m until you used those 2 arrows. Nobody knows what will happen in 100 meters, the situation might change and you might need your shield, your mace or sword. If you had 20 arrows arranged in your hand you would have to drop them and waste them.
It was just not useful to have 20 arrows in your fingers, be it bowhand or drawhand. And the arranging in the kassai method takes maybe even longer than shooting those arrows.

Regarding Kassai there is an important thinking mistake. You have to start stopping the time before, when he touches the first arrow before arranging, not when he has them ready fixed in his bowhand. Did I make this important point clear?

You should take two archers for different methods of nocking standing next to each other, then you should say 'start' and the archers should start nocking and shooting. Kassai has to arrange the arrows first which might take 20 seconds (?). The other archer who draws from the quiver can start shooting right away.

Another advantage of having only 2 arrows in your drawing hand is that you can draw 2 arrows out of your quiver in one move and push them e.g. against the saddle so they have the right length, then you can continue with this technique. So prearranging goes very fast also.

I myself use the Turkish style of holding 2 arrows in my drawing hand.
I experimented also with holding arrows in the bow hand but I had the feeling that either the arrows or my fingers will break because of the higher bow poundages I use. I dont think it is feasible with warbows. Also I use wooden arrows. Besides, as stated before it will affect bow and shooting performance.

But in a modern track with the Hungarian point system and rules, where time starts after you arrange the arrows, with low poundage bows and big V shaped nocks, the Kassai style has definitely an advantage over drawing from the quiver...

G?kmen

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:45 pm

This skilled Korean archer is able to take the arrow from the quiver, nock it and release in under 3 seconds:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlrWcr0P ... r_embedded

I completely agree with Gokmen that you don't need more than 2 arrows in your hand plus one nocked. And you only need this technique if you need to shoot all three in under 3 seconds, without sacrificing accuracy or cast.

daryush · Post by **daryush** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:40 pm

Gokmen - thanks for your very good post about the Turko-Persian speed shooting method.

Just thought I ought to add, I have managed it with an 80 lb bow, albeit in a fairly clumsy manner.
I think it works better for arrows who have their centres of gravity nearer the point. That way, the part of the arrow above the hand is shorter if you hold it at the centre of gravity and doesn't interfere with the bow as much.

I also agree that holding two in such a manner is a maximum.

lars andersen · Post by **lars andersen** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:20 pm

We know with certainty that there were historical archers who
trained a lifetime to have up to 14 arrows in the hand simultaneous
and shoot them very very quickly
If you have such skills, so perhaps there is not much reason to switch to sword

And I think certainly not our historical archer has spent 20 seconds on arrangerer his arrows,
I'm pretty sure he could Gibe them all from the
quiver in a single advanced movement while he was in a gallop

sincerely,
Lars Andersen

Dan · Post by **Dan** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:34 pm

Is this war archers or sport archers? And the source?

Holding arrows in the bow hand

Holding arrows in the bow hand

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