Bulgarian findings regarding composite bows

[MupKo]

I owe you explanation... In Serbian and other southern Slavic languages we use double negations. I use that in English, too, as we see.
Double negations do not negate each other, like in math or logic. They are all pointed in same direction. So it's a strong negation.

Our popular song even have triple negation:
Не може нам нико ништа
Јачи смо од судбине...
(nobody can not do nothing to us
we are stronger than destiny...)

[jkekoni]

Double and sometime even triple negation seem to be common in some black american english dialects for strong negation.

More informstion from america crime series.

Chinese language negation seem to go by the formal logic. Could explain more, but here are so many people who actually know the language ...

[Kalojan]

Hello to you!

I am at first sorry, that I was not able to introduce myself, because I didn't find a thread to it.

Nonetheless: I am a reenactor, ,and am reenacting a bulgarian archer of the late 14th century. So I am in very intensive use of the Composite Bow



I found in the National Museum of History in Sofia this Bow. Its in the Hall exhibited, which is for the Ottoman Period. For me is very interesting, that it seems to be a Manchu-like Bow, but has ottoman floral motives painted on it.

What do you say about that? Was this kind of bow used till the 15th and 16th century on the Balkan Peninsula?

btw.: Sorry,that I am reactivating a quite old thread

[jack farrell]

Chinese made bow. Please show closeup of the decoration. Welcome to this site. -j-

[Kalojan]

Thank you!

Here a closeup

[jack farrell]

Sorry, I cannot make out the decoration. Maybe Peter or Stephen can. You are the second person the find a Chinese bow provenienced to the Ottoman army. I do not believe there is any mistake since at least three other countries' national museums have similar bows attributed to local armies.

[Kalojan]

Sorry, I cannot make out the decoration. Maybe Peter or Stephen can.

The problem is, that I was not able to make a better Photo of the Decoration, so it can be hardly seen.

You are the second person the find a Chinese bow provenienced to the Ottoman army. I do not believe there is any mistake since at least three other countries' national museums have similar bows attributed to local armies.

But what conclusion can I make:

A, The Bows were imported from China or the Border Regions of China (I personally don't believe it at all)

B, This Type of Bow came through the Mongol Invasion of the Northern Black Sea to the Balkan Peninsula, and co-existed with the later Ottoman and Tatar Bows. So that Tatar, Turkish and this kind of Bow were produced and used on the Balkan Peninsula.

[jack farrell]

I think it is quite clear that the Chinese had a very organized bow making culture. This is not entirely a Manchu development as there is ample evidence that production bow making far preceded this, last dynasty. Not only are the Chinese at the epicenter of bow making materials, waterbuffalo horn and bamboo, but the labor force for this manufacture was well organized from an early time.

Surely there was some Chinese governmental consent to this trade as the bow making shops were licensed by the government. How this particular bow came to the army and or museum is another matter. You will be the richer for finding a trade route from China to the Ottoman army that suits the time and place of collection; overland or by sea.

[Kalojan]

I personally think, that this patricular type of bow came with the Mongols and Tatars to the Balkan Peninsula in Mit 13th Century, where it was then also by the Locals used, till the 15th century or maybe even 16th century, beginning from the 14th century to co-exist with other types, like the Turkish Bow.

I don't think that it was imported, because it would be to expensive. The Distance between the Ottoman's Border in the East in the 15th century and China seems to me quite long, so it would be very expensive to transport, especially if thinking of that on the Balkan Peninsula were plenty of bowmakers, especially in ottoman times.

[jack farrell]

This is not a Mongol type bow. Mongol type bows were succeeded by Turkic type bows. Qing Manchu bows followed a separate but parallel development.

If you were to be able to secure pics of the decoration, you would most likely see Chinese decorative motifs.

I am sure we would all be interested in some proof to support your theory.

[Kalojan]

This is not a Mongol type bow. Mongol type bows were succeeded by Turkic type bows. Qing Manchu bows followed a separate but parallel development.

I know, but the Mongols made also use of the Manchu-Bows.

If you were to be able to secure pics of the decoration, you would most likely see Chinese decorative motifs.

As I saw, were the motifs absolutely ottoman. I have no doubt about it

I am sure we would all be interested in some proof to support your theory.

These are all Photos I have

[Kalojan]

second attachment-series

[Zoran Pavlovic]

Kalojan,
Sure, this is not a bow type used in Balkans at the time you mentioned. Composite bows in Balkan peninsula had more turkic/Kipchac characteristics/influences. Ears are of smaller dimension judging by painted records, no knees, reflex at the grip goes between 160 and 150 degrees, in some cases less, ears and grip are often strenghten by bone plates (i am talking about most Serbian bows, Bulgarian ones do not have bone stiffeners).

Most of depicted bows seem to be covered by birch bark lacquered in white on the belly side (olifa) and also leather covered back painted in different colors. Olifa is lacquer mentioned in several Serbian medieval manuals such as Erminia by greek zograph Dionisius of Furna, Serbian Erminia and Tipicon of Nectarius.There's also manuals for making colors (not for painting the bows but it can explain how colors for (even) bows decorations were prepared).

Interesting that Serbs, Greeks and Bulgarians used lead for making white color (same as Tan T'an Chiung reports about bowmaking in Chengtu).

I believe that this bow came to museum from some other collection as it is case of some artefacts in Serbian museums ( i had a chance to see two unexposed Chinese bow in the museum's store.

There's no so much representation of Bulgarian bows in mural painting as it is in Serbian or Greek mural painting but you should start with mural painting. Check this topic i started long time ago. You can notice something like a birch bark cover over the back of the bow(s)
http://atarn.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t ... rbian+bows
Cheers!

[Kalojan]

I know that this kind of bows was very unusual on the Balkan Peninsula, thats why I was wondering about this bow.

I actually used for the reenacting a Turkish Bow by Sand?r Moln?r. Turkish Bows are on many murals, for example of the Kremikovtsi Monastery and Dragalevtsi Monastery in Bulgaria Also in some Manuscripts, like the Tetraevangeila of Tsar Ivan Aleksandr or the Manasses Chronicle seem to be Turkish (although its difficult to say cause the lack of detail)

I was searching for a less sensitive and less expensive alternative, cause the bow will face conditions which are quite bad for a bow.

BTW: I don't think that there is much difference between the Bows used by the Byzantines, Bulgarians and Serbs in this Period: Same influences leaded to similar kind of Armory, same if you look at Sabers depicted in the 14th Century.

[Amarutu]

I found something interesting on a German archery forum. A new member showas a Roman bow, looking very manchu in my eyes. He is a histrian and currently working in a museum - and rumor tells, he works accurate.

Here is the the link to the forum:

http://www.fletchers-corner.de/viewtopi ... =5&t=18082

And here a (hopefully) working link to a google-translation from German to English:

http://translate.google.de/translate?sl ... 82&act=url


Could it be possible the "Chinese looking bow" is in fact an old Roman design?