North Asian Horseback Archery Technique

jurta · Post by **jurta** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:10 pm

Hi Bede,
To discuss about history is OK for me, I'll open a topic under general discussion.

I agree with most of your reply, but from my view the things are look like a bit different.

The improovement of saddles is correct, but I wanted to explain to you that the saddle is only a help to the horseman and without a saddle you can shoot well from the back of the horse.

Stephen,
This picture seems to me a long drawing, it must be at least 30"

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:30 pm

Norbert,
I was starting to think this thread was starting to get too complicated. Good idea.

I did not mean to imply that you could not shoot well off a horse without a saddle. Of course that can be done. The Parthians were famous for shooting to the rear long before the introduction of stirrups.

For Stephen: That is a surprisingly Chinese-looking Saka. While the draw is consistent with the bows and arrows in the Urumqi Museum, the bow is longer and so is the draw than the archers use in Scythian art in the West. As I pointed out before there are some depictions of larger Scythian bows in the West with longer draws.

Diana · Post by **Diana** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:03 pm

Stephen,
Unless there is serious perspective distortion, that very low anchor would go a long way to explaining the need of certain body modifcations!!!
I tried drawing that way (Not shooting though), it stresses a whole different set of muscles.
Diana

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:32 am

For Stephen: That is a surprisingly Chinese-looking Saka. While the draw is consistent with the bows and arrows in the Urumqi Museum, the bow is longer and so is the draw than the archers use in Scythian art in the West. As I pointed out before there are some depictions of larger Scythian bows in the West with longer draws.

I myself started off thinking he was Chinese (which is why he graces the cover of 'Chinese Archery'.) But then I satrted to see more Han art (tomb carvings) showing battles with the Saka, and now I think that based on the clothing and cap, this is not supposed to be a Chinese.

Also, remember that it's a piece of art, not a technical drawing. There could be some distortion because it's painted on a very convex surface of a vase.

S.

MJuingong · Post by **MJuingong** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:35 am

redhawk: thank you for info, and good luck.

Mr. Selby: thanks for picture. If I may comment:

1) the draw is long, not short, if the archer turns his head just a bit more to the left the anchor point is as far as his right ear (I've noticed that on many, a draw as far as the ear on the drawing hand's side is, if a line is drawn straight down, as far as the nipple on that side);

2) Are we being specific when we say Scythians? I think of them as a horse nomadic people inhabiting Russia, including the Crimean peninsula and Black Sea area, around to the Asia Minor area, and going into the area north and east of the Balkans. As pointed out by Bede, there were Eastern and Western Scyths. But, Saka, as bordering China, seems unlikely to embrace Scythians.

I must point out that the denomination "Scyths" comes from a civilised, literate, sedentary people, the Greeks, who may well have been a bit too inclusive.

How about Saka archery? Did it penetrate Chinese armor at respectable ranges?

About saddles, stirrups, and horse archery: if the body need be put into drawing the bow, is it possible that stirrups make that easier? Remember that when the Romans and Parthians first clashed, in 53 B.C. E., the Parthian arrows pierced "either shield or cuirass", and the latter were almost certainly of metal (most of them mail, iron). The Parthians had no stirrups, I don't know about their saddles.

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:34 am

I am probably not qualified to get into a debate about how to distinguish Saka, Scythians, Yuezhi, etc. I would just point out that today we tend to use a criterion of 'ethnicity' to distinguish groups of people; but in Central Asian nomadic society, the designations people gave themselves (Tatar, Mongol, Hun etc) were normally political.

Did Saka archery penetrate armour? Probably not. But the armour favoured by the Chinese was made of leather and did not cover the whole body - and the horses hardly at all. Arrow points were usually poisoned, so the main tactics consisted of disabling men and horses so that they could be finished off with short weapons.

About stirrups, certainly it is possible to shoot effectively from horseback without them. Kassai or Lucas Novotny would be happy to demonstrate. However, on rough ground, it is difficult to stay on, and even more difficult to shoot accurately without stirrups.

Depictions of early riders in action typically show two riding positions: one with the feet tucked behind the forearms of the horse at the brisket, and the other with the legs raised to allow the rider to rise with the movement of the horse, like a rising trot.

Another feature of the saddle design we can see on the Qin Teracotta Warriors and saddles from the Tarim mummies is that there were strapped behind the horse's quarters under the tail. This would have been necessary if there was a tendency for the saddle to slip forward.

If the terrain is right, horses wll move forward confidently and with an elongated pace, meaning less vertical shock. So with even ground and enough speed, horseback shooting should not have presented a problem. But fighting at close quaters or over rough ground on horseback would have been very limited.

S.

MJuingong · Post by **MJuingong** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:38 am

Thank you Mr. Selby.

I think it is interesting to note the length of leg in a number of Chinese statuettes of riders. Usually, we think of Western European riders as extended leg, and Oriental and Eastern Europeans as short legs. But previous to stirrups, a half-or-longer leg seems common; and even Chinese Tang statuettes, presumably at a time when stirrups were in use, show extended legs.

I hope to see films of Kassai and others in action.

jurta · Post by **jurta** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:30 am

Hi All,
Just an example about shooting from horse without saddle. The archer is the previously noted Zsolt Kelemen.

You can find some more picture on our website: http://aranysolyom.blacksun.hu/gallery/

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:29 am

Norbert,
Please congratulate Zsolt on his riding and shooting. It looks like he even is riding a horse of the right size. Most modern horses are too tall compared to the skeletons found in archaeological sites.

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:42 am

Just an example about shooting from horse without saddle. The archer is the previously noted Zsolt Kelemen.

That is an interesting photograph. Here is a comment (not a criticism of a wonderful archer.) Kelemen has adopted a very classic position based, I think, on deep research. However, he has followed the modern fashion of placing the saddle far forward on the horse's back. North Asian riders place the saddle further back, often with two girth straps and a strap under the tail.

As Kelemen is demonstrating, horseback shooting demands a forward riding position; but if the saddle is too far forward, the horse will be less balanced because he is having to deal with a lot of weight forward of centre. Placing the archer's weight further back reduces this problem. Since I have no choice but to use modern saddles, I have to compensate by sitting up to re-balance the horse after every couple of shots.

Can anyone contact Keleman and ask him to share his experiences with us?

S.

jurta · Post by **jurta** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:23 am

Hi Stephen,
If you check this picture carefully you can see that the archer control the horse without saddle and bridle.

In Hungary mainly we are using (beside of the modern saddles) two kind of Hungarian (nomad) style saddles one is based on the X. the other from the XVIII. century style. Both are quite similar to each other.

From my side I have a "modern" Mongolian saddle, I got it from my girfriend's relatives for Lunar New Year in 2004. To ride in a Mongolian saddle is prity confortable feeling.

I have a good relationship with Kelemen, I'm trying to study from him. Easier to just write in English for me than translate from Hungarian to English, anyway I will arrange some translation for this forum.
Just for your information he just finished a book about horseback archery and practical archeology research. The book is under printing.

Bede,
Yes, basically this could be a good size of the horse. I also have a similar size, very good for riding and horseback archery.

Have a nice weekend!

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:08 pm

Ez a konyv erdekes nekem!
Is it possible to arrange a purchase through you of the book? I will not be back in Hungary until September, and then only to visit my wife's family and see some old friends with the Bethlen Gabor group.

Jason DuLac · Post by **Jason DuLac** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:28 pm

Norbert,

2 years after the last post! I am new here and would ask that same question as the last poster, "Is it possible to arrange a purchase through you of the book?"

I am an experienced archer, who has recently aquired a young Arabian gelding. I've been doing quite a bit of ground work with him under the experienced eye of my wife and another trainor. I need any guidance I can get regarding horse archery!

Thanks!

J.