KZ HORN BOW IN URALSK MUSEUM!

Vonegelut · Post by **Vonegelut** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:29 am

Hi Guys! Happy New year!
I am lucky to find a KZ bow on KZ museum web site opened in a new year.
Here is a characteristic:
The bow made of Ibex horns gray color with a smooth surface. The center part is covered with a brown leather and decorated with silver plate in the form of figural ornament ?қошқар мүйіз? inlaid with carnelian. The curved edge of the bow overlaid with two sides with ornament nickel silver plates & 2 stones, carnelian. Bowstring made of leather. The length of the bow 130 cm . the length of quiver is 89,5cm.
I think it's look like a made without a wooden core

It' a quite a little information about a bow I also wrote to them for details.

Patrick Menzies · Post by **Patrick Menzies** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:01 pm

It also has no sinew back and was likely made last year by somebody who was influenced by the cover pic of a fantasy novel. :roll:

Kviljo · Post by **Kviljo** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:12 pm

Yes, this can sadly not be an original artefact. It is a bit of a shame that a museum would put something like that on display. While its pieces may be put nicely together, it is an insult to the ancient KZ bowyers. One can only hope that it is labelled as a modern made "bow symbol".

Vonegelut · Post by **Vonegelut** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:45 am

Sad thing... That they put in one group with an artefacts!

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:28 pm

I am sorry to say that this is just the tip of the iceburg. All of the bows in the Almaty national museum are of Chinese manufacture of the 19 century or maybe a bit earlier. A request to the collections department demonstrates that the curators are convinced that these are Kazakh made bows.

An otherwise very well written book published in Russian language in Kz, Ethnographica, which is an excellent source on the arms and armaments of this country, also misrepresents the ethnic bows. Communications with the author also demonstrates that on this particular topic, the author is not knowledgeable. I said nothing.

To be fair, Russian collections in the Hermitage? do contain these ethnic bows so the folks there did recognize the difference when they took them out of the country. There are just a few quivers and several arrows of Kz construction still in Kazakhstan.

The bow in the first post is a fantasy production for tourists and can be seen in the markets there.

ATARN remains on the cutting edge of traditional (ethnic) archery information.

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:55 am

The authentic Kazakh bows were brought to our attention by atarnite Dusan in his long thread of interesting bows in Russian collections. Thanks, Dusan.

Vonegelut · Post by **Vonegelut** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:07 am

So I see that the best way to reconstruct a true KZ bow is to contact with Hermitage & go to St.Petersburg to make a measurement. Make the replica. And then - go with a critics to our museums

Vonegelut · Post by **Vonegelut** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:12 am

jack farrell wrote:The authentic Kazakh bows were brought to our attention by atarnite Dusan in his long thread of interesting bows in Russian collections. Thanks, Dusan.

Jack, what do you think - did the Kazakhs made their bows wooden core(like a Sythians from West China) with a Tamarisk wich is alot of growing near the rivers in a stepps?

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:27 pm

I do not believe that Tamarisk is useful for composite bow making. You have found out that you are surrounded by the best composite bow making materials on earth. This does not include Tamarisk, I think.

Uli · Post by **Uli** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:04 pm

this grows very curved, so it could make good natural siyahs

for you it would now be quite some waste of time to try tamarisk

however I'd find it an interesting experiment to show if its possible to make a bow from some twisted brush wood like this.. see the 5-piece core was developped for lack of long pieces of straight wood.

which scythian bow was made of tamarisk ?

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:20 am

There is a bow described in an article on Khotanese Archery in The Journal of the Society of Archer-Antiquaries, Vol. 16, 1973, pp. 29-31. It was discovered by Sir Marc Aural Stein.

N. viii. 4. Bow of tamarisk wood. Made from a small branch of a tree or from a sapling, halved to near the centre, where a round section is left to form a hand-piece, ends tapered and shaped to take a string, broken at one end. Resembles the pellet-bow used by bird0scarers in India today. Length 3 ft. 6 ins.

This is a quote from Stein's report. Some crossbow bolts were found as well. The bow is a simple self bow using the outside of the branch as its back. While this may not be directly relevant to this discussion, it does prove that tamarisk was used for bows.

Vonegelut · Post by **Vonegelut** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:47 am

Ok guys

But my father told me that our ancestors made a "shanyrak" the central part of Urta from tamarasik & "karatal" (kind of willow) . Anyway it was interesting to see your opinion

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:08 pm

Rafael; That is good information. What is a shanyrak? What is Urta?

OH NOW I GET IT!!! the shanyrak is the wheel like center of the yurt (ger). the shanyrak is on the Kz flag. Is this so? HA! Jack

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:02 pm

Bede and all. Yes, I have also read that tamarisk was used for bow making. In a much younger time I also made some bows from willow. There is a great number of tamarisks growing in the southwest USA where they are an introduced species, maybe from Australia. They can grow to an immense size in the desert where there is just a little water, like a ditch or arroyo.

A little investigation shows that there are many types of tamarisk. I have used them successfully for arrow making. But the type here is soft like poplar or willow. It can be made into a child's bow but not a serious bow, certainly not a composite. Why one would report that it was used this way is beyond me. Maybe because in Xinjiang it is one of the few trees.

One cannot go down to the river and find the birch bark used on a Scythian bow. Those Siberian ibex are not found in the desert. Most Scythians had to travel to obtain bronze points. And so there is no surprise that the material for bow cores came from mountain sides and not from tamarisks or willows.

Those and other soft woods would make a youngster's stone bow, especially in the dry environment. There is yet another type of bow and arrows found not infrequently in Xinjiang collections, bows and arrows which are fetishes or more accurately, oracles. These were not used in a classic sense to shoot but were used to divine. There are also other oracles not uncommon from the bronze age and I think, iron age. collections.

Vonegelut · Post by **Vonegelut** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:00 am

jack farrell wrote:Rafael; That is good information. What is a shanyrak? What is Urta?

OH NOW I GET IT!!! the shanyrak is the wheel like center of the yurt (ger). the shanyrak is on the Kz flag. Is this so? HA! Jack

Yes Jack you're right

Shanyrak is very symbolic & relic for the most of nomads of our region. Also I found a latin name of that kind of willow (Salix tenuijulis). And some sources say that the yellow birch was used too